In Virgil's Aeneas, the goddess Venus is his chief supporter. This painting is of a meeting of Venus with Virgil and his loyal friend Achates.
In this reading, the spirit of Virgil (also known as Maro),the author of the Aenead, comes to visit Lavinia. He tells her about a man (Aeneas) who has the positive qualities of Turnus but who also is pious, which Turnus is not. This leads to him telling her about what happened to this man--Aeneas--at the end of the Trojan War.
Two prompts. Do one or the other, or both.
1. Is there anything not quite clear about the plot in this section (or anything we've read previously)? Raise the question, and then try to answer it, or let other people figure out an answer to your question.
2. Virgil says some things that might predispose Lavinia to like Aeneas--like what? Why would your example tend to make Lavinia like Aeneas?
Two prompts. Do one or the other, or both.
1. Is there anything not quite clear about the plot in this section (or anything we've read previously)? Raise the question, and then try to answer it, or let other people figure out an answer to your question.
2. Virgil says some things that might predispose Lavinia to like Aeneas--like what? Why would your example tend to make Lavinia like Aeneas?
29 comments:
1. The thing that most confused me is that the book is referring to another book which is referring to an ancient story. In any case this would be quite confusing.
Answer which I THINK is true..correct me if I'm wrong:
the poet who visits Lavinia (Maro/Virgil) is the author of the Aeneas and this book (Lavinia) is about the book the Aeneas.
Yes?
Will talk about second question when I check in.
This is Rosamund.
I think that th eplot is fairly clear. It is obvious that this foreign man from Troy is going to come to Lavinia's country and they are going to meet and fall in love and get married. The thing that was not so clear to me was teh whole poet thing. It was confusing at first when Lavinia mentioned the person she met as a poet and I did not understand it at first, though later it made sense.
This is Sofia...
Itt took me a second to figure out that the wraith speaking to Lavinia was Virgil. As the chapter went on, I began to understand, especially when he told Lavinia that he was a poet.
As for the second prompt, I think that Lavinia would like Aeneas because he was a brave, strong, faithful man who had been through a lot and risked his own life to save his father and son. Indeed, when Virgil described Aeneas to Lavinia and asked her if she would "favor such a man", she said she "would certainly pay attention to him.
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This is Hunter.
I'm doing prompt #2...
An example of something Virgil says to make Lavinia like Aeneas is on page 45 it says, "When he got home, he tried to get his people to leave the house, escape the city, save themselves..." This makes Lavinia like him because she sees he is strong-willed and kind. I think she really likes that.
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Howdy y'all!
First prompt:
The first question is a little different for me to answer because I've read the Aeneid. I do think what Rosamund says in her first entry is correct, though. This is a book referring to a book referring to a story... Tricky. The Aeneid is an epic built and elaborated off of ancient Roman myths. Similar to the Odyssey/Iliad. In fact the trait - renovated myth - is the definition of an epic. If anything is vague about this reading it is the connection Ursula draws in order make her "Aeneid through Lavinia" idea effective - the poets spirit visiting Lavinia before his spirit is transported to the underworld, etc... But that is minor.
Second prompt:
On page 42: "Well, if a man came who was heroic and [had also] learned piety the hard way...Might you favor such a man?"
Of course, the author is refering to Aeneas. Before this statement, Virgil has been trading dialogue with Lavinia as to the nature of her suitors. Who are they, are they nice, etc? They converse about Turnus and conclude he lacks piety. So, if a man has piety, asks Virgil above, would you THEN like him? Here, Virgil is predisposing his creation to feeling as if she could not NOT like this mystery man. He is perfect - all the manly attributes, as well as piety? I think, as we can see in Lavinia's reply, he has done a good job of convincing her:
"I would certainly pay attention to him,"
Further reading makes it clear Lavinia is interested. She wants to hear more and more! What affect will this have on Lavinia and Aeneas' eventually relationship, that she has been predisposed to his amazing-nocity?
hello everyone!!!!!
Qheres Brundisium? Whats a wraith?? Why does the Tiber River have a seret name???
on pg 42 in the middle of the page...the poet says things like "heroic" "responsible and just and faithful. A man who has lost much...made many istakes and paid for all of them....seen his city betrayed and burnded...........
the wraith (whatever that means) or poet...?? is almost bragging about this character and how perfectly AMAZINGZ he is.....possibly getting Lavinia to like him or maybe just be amazed and nterested in this powerful (emotionally ad physically) man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Prompt 1: I have a question about the plot: It’s interesting that the poet asks this vague question, obviously about Aeneas, before describing her to him, but why would he ask her if he already had written that she marries Aeneas? The poet seems unclear what he has created, and what is reality - is it this? Or, is he just fascinated with this character that he is meeting in person?
Now for prompt 2:
I really agree with Matt, Hunter, and Sofia. The poet both asks whether Lavinia would “favor” a man “who was heroic and also responsible,” and she answers that she would “certainly pay attention to him.” The poet later describes Aeneas’s heroic and kind actions, leading the reader to view him as someone we’d like for the likable character of Lavinia. But, I also think the succession of the plot is quite interesting. The chapter starts with a vivid description of Aeneas, and his relationship with Lavinia; his wife. This description comes out of nowhere, and introduces Aeneas with a “boom.” The book then takes us back in time to Lavinia’s venture to Albunea, where she meets the poet who almost “prophesizes” her future relationship with Aeneas . I think this order is important and adds a “hook” that pushes the reader not to put the book down.
One thing that confuses me about the plot is the fact they sometimes refer to their future like they know whats going to happen but they dont at the same time. And me being the very confused being i am dont know if they are reffering to know or if like the future or somthing....
iF THAT MAKES SENSE
I'd have to agree about the plot being a bit confusing...they do tend to have some weird times (not even just in this chapter)...but I think it became clearer and clearer as the story went on. I really think this is an example of a truely amazing and creative story! The way the Ursula K. Le Guin came up with the story of having Lavinia know that she is a myth...it is very interesting! Apart from the little description of the Iliad (I have personal issues with the Iliad), I really liked the way that scene was done! It just proves that the plot doesnt have to be clear in order to capture your attention. I wouldnt have said that I was really hooked, until these pages!
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Was Lavinia dreaming the whole time?
Now that I look back I realize that she had been dreaming for most of the reading. The thing that made me think she was not awake was that the person she was talking to (Maro or Virgl) was dead and she was talking to his soul. He was kind of like a prophesy and I was confused.
The reason I thought she was awake was that I was assuming that she was because usually people are when they speak in text. However, not ususally when they are talking to a dead person.
Anyway... It was my mistake.
-Rocco
Haha...I thought the same thing at first Rocco!
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I also thought of Rocco's questio first but I was really confused so which part of the story is actually happening to Lavinia and which part is about the "story"...
My answer (guess) is that when you hear the man (poet) talking to Lavinia, it is happening in "her world" but once it starts talking about all the shooting star and the wife stuff, it is the story...
I am not really sure if I am right or not...
I agree with Rosamund....it is sorta confusing like how they talk about another book inside the book. I also find it confusing the way that it is writting...in the first person. I find that can be sometimes confusing and also the question is raised whethere she is a real person or she is just in the book. It is really hard to tell. The book's plot sometimes suffers to the confusing way the book is written....
BTW this is DANNY!!!!!!!!! :D
#2
On pg. 42 after the poet had asked Lavinia who her suitors were, if she liked them, and why she didn't like them he says...
"Well. If a man came who was heroic and also responsible and just, and faithful, a man who had lost much, and suffered much, and made a good many mistakes and paid for them all-a man who saw his city betrayed and burned, and saved his father and his son from the burning, a man who went down alive into the underworld and returned, a man who learned piety the hard way...Might you favor such a man?"
She replies in a simple and cute way...
"I would certainly pay attention to him"
I think that this response shows that Lavinia might just like this guy. I don't know why but I just love that line in the book. I think it's absolutely adorable.
I looked up the word pious...since it seems to be important in this setting...so here is the definition:
Pious: having or showing a dutiful spirit of reverence for God or an earnest wish to fulfill religious obligations;having or showing appropriate respect or regard for parents, family and people of authority
What the poet tells us about Aeneas we learn that he is a great hero. We learn that his life hasn't been easy, that he had to learn things the hard way...and that because of this he has a great character. We start to like him I think...as well as Lavinia, just as we dislike the Mother and Turnus...
This is still sort've related to the prompt but it is going off a little ways so I'm sorry...
way back a couple of nights ago...
on pgs. 23-26 when we see a glance of the future...when Lavinia and Aeneas are discussing the meaning of the art on his armor...Lavinia gets deeply disturbed by what she knows will happen...and the foreshadowing of the armor...
It says on pgs 25-26:
"As I continue looking I see things I never observed before. The city, or some great city, lies all in ruins, utterly destroyed and burned. I see another destroyed city, and another. Enormous fires burst out in a line, one after another, enveloping a whole countryside flame. Huge machines of war crawl on the ground, or dive under the sea, or hurtle through the air. The eath itself burns in oily black clouds. Now an immense round cloud of destruction rises up over the sea at the end of the world. I know it is the end of the world. I say to Aeneas in horror, 'Look, look'.... **I burst into tears and clasp Aeneas in my arms, and he holds me tenderly, telling me not to cry, dear heart, don't cry.**"
I think that is so sweet. Aeneas and Lavinia are...I don't know exactly why, but when girls cry and boys are there to hug them...I think it's the cutest, nicest thing in the world. They are a very cute couple. I can see it already...Aeneas the strong man who has seen destruction before, and Lavinia the sweet innocent girl who knows what is coming...and doesn't want it to happen. Aeneas is there for Lavinia when she needs him....at least from what we have seen so far.
Hey Turner... Brundisium is a town in southern Italy along the Tyrrhenian Sea. Its a major port city and also has some significance in the history of the fall of the Roman empire.
I don't quite understand Jakes question: What question is it the author asks about Aeneas? I don't believe Virgil ever comes out to say Lavinia will be wed to Aeneas, but I could be wrong. It is interesting though, how fascinated the poet seems with his creation. He constantly seems to mumble about how "if he didn't have to write about the men..." etc. We can tell he admires her.
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1.I don't understand when and how Turnus first comes into the book. I understand his roll, I just don't know how he first comes into the book? I am also wondering the same as Danny and Rosamund. Is Lavinia really real or is she just a story in a poem? I couldn't quite understand this part? hmmm?
OH and this is AISON REMMERS! :)
Hey Matt,
So what I was saying is that it's odd that the poet is asking her if she would be interested in a guy like Aeneas when her life was written by him, and we read earlier that she is married to him - does this make more sense?
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i think it is confusing how the poet is not in complete control. i dont understand why he is trying to convince her of something, why cant he just say "this is what happens...."
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my question is...who was the thing talking to Lavina?
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What's most hazy about the plot currently is where and who the poet is in relation to the story. Is he part of the time line of whats going on, or a small excerpt for interpretation by the reader to find interesting? Personally I think its a bit of both. The author describes Lavinia going to the altar and then being approached by the poet, but then the poet is Virgil who is the author of a story extremely similar to Lavinia's story. He then tells her of Aeneas which is even more obscure but left wide open to interpretation due to the serious connections between Virgil's writing of Achilles and then speaking about Aeneas to Lavinia.
Oops... I forgot to check in last night.
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