In this reading, Lavinia is troubled by her suitors, as she is in the Aeneid. In the earlier epic, the Odyssey, Penelope, the wife of the hero Odysseus, is troubled by her many suitors, all of whom want Odysseus' kingdom, and want her to admit that Odysseus must be dead by now. This image is of Penelope and her suitors.
Possible prompts for this evening's reading:
a) Mars is the god of war and of boundary lines (boundary lines often cause wars). Why might the author bring in a discussion of Mars at this point?
b) "There was nothing much wrong with Turnus himself, but much wrong with the way my mother looked at him" (p. 35). Comment.
c) Turnus gives Lavinia a monkey for a present. Comment on this incident.
You may address one or more of these, or you may bring up your own topic.
33 comments:
Wow!! I am first to comment for the first time!! Anyway...
a) I think the author mentions Mars here as another means of foreshadow. She talks of the Leapers, who take the armor, shields and spears from the closet each year to run about, dressed as warriors. What is the significance of this "festival" I wonder? But, the war of Mars-ness refers to the conflict Turnus and his suitors present. I doubt anything will happen war-wise, but there is some "manly" conflict evident.
I'll be back soon...
I agree with you Matt - couldn't have said it better. I chose to discuss prompt C.
Turnus’ gift of a monkey to Lavinia may seem trivial, but this gift highlights the feelings Lavinia has toward him, and her feelings about his relationship with her mother. The “pet” is clearly a bad match for Lavinia - she expresses she “tried to be kind to the little animal; but [she] could not like it, and it hated me” (p. 35), adding that it “sprang” into her mother’s arms, her mother “kissing it and crooning over it” (p. 35). This is strongly metaphorical for her dislike of Turnus, who she feels looks at her “like a butcher looks at the cow” (p. 34), and this suitor who is forced upon her by her mother. This metaphor goes farther though, the monkey loving the mother, and disliking Lavinia, striking a odd parallel with the mother’s strange relationship with Turnus, Lavinia adds that the monkey’s show of affection for her mother made her overcome with “sickness” (p. 35).
Third to comment.... I tried earlier... (see the last blog.)
I want to write about Lavinia's and her father's feelings more.
From page 32: "My father enjoyed their visits very much, far more than I did. They brought young manhood into the house. He liked to feast them well and give them wine, pouring their bowls full again and again;he liked their gifts of games and sausage, and white kids and black piglets; he liked them to see his feiry queen, so much younger than he, not so much older than some of them... They ended up all laughing late into the night at the great table."
I is sad to me how little of a relationship she has with the men. It seems like it is all her father. He is entertaining them, quite well, well enough for them to not quarrel and have friendship (pp 32).
It says repeatly he, he he, about her father, She is talking about his relationships with them and not her own. It's really old fashioned. She seems to not be having fun (also, pp 32).
Overall I really wanted to point out the cultural difference in marrige for them.
I'll be checking in (more than once)
-Rocco
Ooh... Jake I just read your entry. I love what you point out. I like how you were thinking. Great entry!
Hey...I wanted to say that I COMPLETELY agree with Rocco! Dead on! I think it draws some connection to Palace Walk, where they have little communication and intereaction with the opposite gender. Though in Palace Walk it was FAR worse! But I feel like maybe Lavinia has almost nothing to say to them. She is probably around so many different people all the time and when shes in a relatively intimate setting, she isn't really sure how to act. She has to have some sort of ladylike behavior and keep up her reputation. Though on the other hand, the fact that her father is SO into it, may turn her off a bit. Since he is putting all this effort forward, there's not much more she could add. And I'm sure the suitors are responding to her father's graciousness and barely involving her, because he's the one that is doing the hosting. I could be completely off, but that's just my take on the situation...
Thanks Renee...
I agree with what you said, because the men are barely even their for her anymore once her father is the one entertaining them. Then they are really there for him. Which I'm not suprised by because the first time Turmus came to visit Lavinia he was there for several says and they spoke once or twice. (pp 22: Turmus stayed serveral days with us, but I met him again only once.)
Again, the culture is so different and on some level like in Palace Walk...
I'll be checking in some more...
-Rocco
People should check in more. It makes the blog more fun.
Checking in...
This is Hunter
I completely agree with Renee! I love how she connected it to Palace Walk and I agree. I think, like Renee said, that Lavinia is, in someway, not sure how to act. To me at least, it seems like she is kind of self concious. You can not tell right away, but it seems like she is hidden in a closet and doesn't know when to show her true personality. Referring back to previous chapters, I think that she does act like herself with her friend Silvia, and somewhat with her dad.
I think that Turnus is just trying to show his affection. Even though he was all the way in Africa he still thought of her and got her a gift which is really sweet and thoughtful. She tries to play with the monkey but is does not like her and goes to her mother. I wonder if this makes her jeaslous or mad becuase I am startingto see soemthing between the mother and Turnus that could be potentially problematica dn possibly scandolous.
I agree with Alex....sometimes it is hard to show effection and he is doing it the best way that he can. Sometimes it is just hard for some people. He is more mature and she is very young. He wants to win her but she doesn't want him...it is an awkward realationship. It should be interesting to see how this unfolds in later chapters.
i want to write about a:
i think that the boundary lines are symbol of what she feels she is. i think she feels like she is a piece of property that people are fighting for. this makes her feel insignificant but at the same time important.
a piece of property cant think and has no will of own. she can think and has a will, but no one really will listen and no one cares what she wants. on the other hand she is the one causing the feuds between her suitors and eventually causes a huge war. i think she feels guilty about causing her suitors to be unhappy or give them false hope. she also doesn't want to get married.
sorry posted to early...anyways I think that it is really hard for him to like accept that she is younger than him and I think that it is hard for her to accept that he is older. I also agree with Matt. I think that the author is trying to foreshadow something that will happen. I am not sure what that is but they are trying to foreshadow.
I'm really interested by what you bring up, Rocco! It makes me wonder - is the father actually enjoying the suitors visits, or does he just appear this way to Lavinia? On page thirty-eight, the poet tells Lavinia that her father has or will be told that Lavinia shouldn't marry a man from Latium, where I believe these suitors are from;If the king has been told this - does it make a difference in how he responds to the suitors?
- Oops, just realized that wasn't from tonight's reading - I guess I'm hooked!
Lavinia have a problem with Turnus until her mother starts to favor him. The fact that she is almost cruel to all the other suitors in favor of Turnus makes Lavinia angry, as she doesn't want anyone to be mistreated. It is especially embarrassing, probably, that it is her mother who is mistreating them. Lavinia doesn't want to marry Turnus because she doesn't want to please her mother after her ridiculous behavior. When Turnus brings her the monkey, he is trying to impress her and the parents by bringing an elaborate gift that will show off his wealth. He gives it to Lavinia most likely because he believes she will find it cute or fun to play with, but obviously the two don't get along.
She may favor Almo because he is quite the opposite of Turnus in all these ways. Her mother despises him most of all, he is not elaborate and she would be able to stay near or at home if she married him. She knows this isn't really possible, but that might be another reason why it sound so attractive. Also, she is kind to him out of pity, as she knows he doesn't stand a chance against her other suitors.
This is Rosamund.
wow i compleatly agree with danny i can definatly see some forshadowing for some possible love connection. I also agree with the fact that age has a huge part to do with it once again danny has shown me the way of doing a good english blog
wow i compleatly agree with danny i can definatly see some forshadowing for some possible love connection. I also agree with the fact that age has a huge part to do with it once again danny has shown me the way of doing a good english blog
Thanks Jake!
I think all of your comments are fantastic! It's so nice to hear your thoughts! I don't have enough time to share all of my thoughts on all of your posts (even though I'd love to) and you guys know that I would if I could.
Jake - I think I may be hooked as well!
Thanks for all of your great comments!
I was reading Rocco's comment and I thought the exact same thing as Renee! There is another point that I thought is really different in Lavinia compared to Palace Walk because in Lavinia, the woman are able to choose their man but in Palace Walk, its all about if the parents like the other person or not.
I think the relationships in Lavinia are becoming really confusing because it still does look like Turnus wants Lavinia to marry him but as Jake said, Lavinia explains it as "like a butcher looks at the cow" I think it is interesting how you are able to see what is actually happening in the scene and how the character reacts to it at the same time.
I would just like to point ou something first beore i right about one of the things MR Durning posted....
It seems like Lavinia (and the book
0 is describing a wolrd like ours today. For examlpe, when our paents were kids, they woudl go down town everyday wth bikes and such and play in the streets and do WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!! Now adays, we can;t really do that, well, we n but we have to be MUCH mroe careful nowadys than our parents were when they were kids. Its a dangerous world out their that we live in....and this is so for Lavinia!!!!!
i'll coment on something else in a minuet...
This is Alison Remmers.
c) I found this incident extremely funny! Turnus brought Lavinia a monkey from Africa. On page 34 Lavinia is describing the monkey from her view; "...it had feet like ours, and a face like a noseless baby. He brought it in riding his shoulder dressed in a tin toga. It clambered all about, chattering, pulling things to pieces, spiling the salt, then stopping to sidt a fondle its penis and stare at us with bright black eyes." I also found this very disgusting.
I'll be back sooooooooon!
Thanks, Rocco and Hunter (and Nami?)!
I was just thinking about how Palace Walk seems to follow some other similarities...like how Lavinia's mother is absent in her life kind of like Ahmad (under different circumstances) is in his kids' lives. Also, there is an element in both--like with Kamal and Maryam in Palace Walk--where they seem to think they love without really getting to know the person. That is also somewhat of a theme in present day where people get married too young...
okay
i think Turnus giving Lavinia a monkey for a present and the monkey "pissing" on her is SSSSSOOOOO hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUT
I also think it is a it of a bad omen...maybe??? That the monkey "pissed" Lavinia off and annyed her.....so maybe that would be her relationship with Turnus.....??????? any takers????
Hey, for the 2nd time!!
I think, as Jake commented on prompt c), I will comment on prompt b)
b) There are constant proposals as to the nature of Amata. Page 32: "She wanted to marry me to her nephew Turnus of Ardea. That desire had come to possess her. She favoured Turnus openly..." We can immediately tell Amata is in this for family prosperity. A bit about how poor Lavinia feels; Page 33: "I did not want to receive the game, the sausages, the kids, the pilets, the stiff compliments. I did not want to sit at the banquet, the silent modest maiden, while my mother...wooed her sister's son." Obviously, Lavinia is not down with the way her mother is acting. The first thing that occurs to my mind is that Amata is attracted to Turnus, but there is already some tension on the relationship between Lavinia and her mother having to do with Lavinia's sex; possibly, this favourment of her sister's son is bread from a type of sick jealousy...
Also, the tone the author gives Lavinia is one of homesickness, or potential homesickness, id est, Lavnia really doesn't want to leave home for that of a stranger (pages 31- 2). Lavinia doesn't want to get married. Amata might be trying to compensate for the attention her daughter is getting by assuming the lime-light is really pointed in her direction...
Whatever the case, Amata is a sick, twisted woman, and a rather self-centered one at that. I don't think she is a very good mother, to say the least...
Thanks for the compliments, Jake. For the record, I couldn't have approached prompt c) better, either!
Nighty night!
You're very welcome Renee.
Matt, you always have very complete entries on this blog.
I salute you.
cheking in...
checkng in
I think that they bring up mars not only as a reference to the conflict going on with Lavina's family, and between the suitors because of this whole courting ordeal....I think it is also a continuation of the foreshadowing we saw in the past couple of chapters...we are getting the sense that the peace in Latium is going to end...possibly even soon, and that a war is coming...
I like how rocco brought up that Lavinia doesn't really have a relationship with the men. Her mother wants her to marry turnus, her father....is just having a grand old time getting to know these men and Lavinia is deeply troubled with the fact that she has to deal with this awkward situation. Imagine if when you were dating people...your parents were this involved, and your mom was forcing you to like someone...and your dad was friends with your dates...and you weren't really sure about any of them...and you didn't really want to date anyways...NOT FUN! I feel bad for Lavinia!!
This is Sofia...
I really like Jake's metaphor of the monkey and Lavinia's dislike for Turnus...:)
I would like to bring up the topic of Lavinia's feelings about being courted. I think it's definitely safe to say that Lavinia does not want to be courted-it makes her uncomfortable and the way her mother woos Turnus disgusts her. The way Turnus looks at Lavinia makes her uneasy. For example, "...Turnus flattered my mother and laughed with my father and looked at me as the butcher looks at the cow." I really like the metaphor at the end of that sentence-it shows so perfectly the way Turnus looked at Lavinia. I also feel like that line basically sums up Turnus in general. He sucks up to Lavinia's parents and looks at her in sort of a hungry way. Personally, Turnus disgusts me and I don't blame Lavinia for not wanting him to court her. She herself wants to choose who she marries, as opposed to her husband being chosen for her.
checking in
i agree with matt and danny. Mars is mentioned as a sign that something, like a fight, will happen soon. I think this because we are beginning to eneter the "meat" of the book i presume.
I think the author had a good reason for bringing in the discussion of Mars at this part of the book. We had previously just read about how Lavinia has foreseen war and destruction. Then the story evolves into her meeting suitors and BAM Mars is one of them. Coincidence possibly? Be it may, the timing is very comfortable to the pace of the story. Lavinia sees war in future, Mars God of War wants to be her suitor, so in a sense it almost fits out too well, but no the the point where it isn't interesting.
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