In response to the prompt, I find it helpful to compare them through the lense of a definition of heroism from Lavinia. Throughout the book, the theme of heroic action is heavily discussed. In response to Lavinia's questioning of Aeneas' heroism in war, Virgil pinpoints an interesting definition of a hero; Aeneas is a hero "because he does what he has to do." This is quite evident in the recent reading we've done. Aeneas comes seeking peace, but is forced to fight, and is forced to kill Turnus to end the war. Turnus didn't need to start this war, and this makes him less heroic according to Virgil's definition. In the story of Hector and Achilles, this is evident as well. Hector fights Achilles because he needs to, and it could be argued that Achilles is also doing what he has to do by fighting Hector. In contrast, there is no reason for Achilles to disrespect the body of Hector, and this takes away from Achilles heroic-ness.
Comparing Aeneas to Achilles: Although Aeneas doesn't spare Turnus's life, he is certainly more merciful than Achilles. He hesitated before killing him, and the deciding factor was memory of Turnus's previous mercilessness to an innocent youth. Turnes's body, unlike Hector's, is sent to his father for a proper burial.
Turnus to Hector: It is interesting that they both have a sequence of trying to escape from their attacker before standing to fight them. The author (in both instances) may have chosen this as some kind of foreshadowing for the outcome of the battle. Perhaps the character knows intuatively that he will be defeated? Also, both characters when they know they have been defeated ask for a decent burial.
On a purely logistical note, Aeneas and Turnus fight (to the death) just outside the city gates, just as Achilles and Hector do...
Anyways...
In his great plot re-representation of the Iliad-Odyssey combo, Virgil tries to parallel certain characters to fill certain plot points. On this way of thinking, then, Turnus and Aeneas fill certain roles to the best of their abilities. The lens of "Lavinia", which shades our view of Aeneas and Turnus a particular, subjective shade, is the only real problem in comparing the true natures of the four characters presented for discussion by Mr. Durning. At first glance, as Jake, Turner and Rosamund have pointed out, Aeneas would seem a kind of Achilles and Turnus a kind of Hector. This is most readily justified by the fact the, as Achilles kills Hector, Aeneas kills Turnus. But lets think about the true, comparable characteristics of the respective character's natures, though. Is not Hector the one to consider his decisions and their potential consequences before and after he goes ahead with them? Then I would consider him more analogous to Aeneas, on Lavinia's descriptions. And the same with Turnus, going ahead with plans as the moment would require them - sans consideration. There is specific text evidence which leads me to infer that Aeneas is the considerate and Turnus is the rash, just as there is with Hector and Achilles. There is also specific text evidence in Lavinia concerning is "rages", which are very similar - on the surface - to those of Achilles. But again, we, as readers of "Lavinia" are hearing about Turnus and Aeneas through an object lens, rather than that of the neutral narrator...
How does this subject lens effect the way we must, then, regard the characters of Aeneas and Turnus as apposed to Hector and Achilles?
I agree so much with everyone so far but it's so difficult for me to relate Turnus to Hector or Achilles to Aneas. I think they are all so different and in any pair made of the four it would still be hard to hit the nail right on the head with similarities.
So, having said that I actually dissagree with Turner and a little bit with Jake and Rosamund.
I think that Aneas and Achilled are similar although Aneas actually ends up killing Turnus but they are also very different because Achilles seems less in control of himself and Aeneas as said by Virgil is very pious, which is a difference he also shares with Turnus.
Turnus and Aeneas are very similar as well except in the detail in the above paragraph. Turnus and Achilles both like to fight and are very good at is as well.
Aeneas can be related to Hector because they are both very strong and powerful but Hector is not the strongest while Aeneas proves himself to be by killing Turnus.
I agree - actually, that's what I was trying to articulate, although not as eloquently. Although Achilles has reason to fight Hector, he disrespects his body, and this is what makes him less of a hero like Turnus, who starts a war he doesn't need to. I agree that Turnus is more like Achilles, and Hector is more like Aeneas.
After I look at all the comments, everyone has mainly explained everything that I can. Later I realized that I was about to say the exact same thing that Rocco said about their characteristics. In this fight between Achilles and Hector, Hector thinks too hard before he actually does anything and Achilles does everything he could before he thinks about what he is doing but this leads him to winning, I thought the reason was because Achilles does all the things faster than Hector. The same thing does not really occur with Aeneas and Turnus because in this story it does not really show or say anything about how either of the characters have a weak point about the thing that I said before. So I do think that these characters are similar in someways but they aren't in some. I also realized that the relationship between the two characters are kind of the same because they both have to fight each other in order to stop the war and they are rivals.
In history we discussed the different attributes of Hector and Achilles, and these are my interpretations/opinions about them:
Hector= super strong,powerful, acts out of blind rage, cruel
Achilles= thinks before he acts, a bit fearful, weaker than hector but still very strong
In a way I think Turnus is a combination of the weaknesses of both characters. He is weaker than Aeneas (still strong but...) and he is cruel and acts out of blind hatred. On the other hand I think Aeneas is a combination of the strengths of both characters. He is extremely strong, he isn't fearful, but he thinks before he acts and he is kind. Aeneas, being human probably does have some flaws. But they aren't shown in this text. And also Turnus has some strengths. But in the text Aeneas's strengths are played up and Turnus's strengths are played down. Making it seem that Aeneas is all good, and Turnus is all bad.
to the facts that In both stories it has to do with heroism. Both Hector and and the book lavinia have to do with war heros. A lot of the book is about war and lavinia outside view on things as well as hector we were getting his view on things. To alborate to Rosamunds Archilles and Aeneas does remind me of eachother because they let their vengernce getthe better of them in both stories
I totally agree with Jake on saying they did what they had to do and comparing the heroic definition from each story. I want to add that I think Turnus and Hector are very similar. This is because they both die because someone else hunts them down(in Lavinia) and they battle it out(in Hector and Achilles). I think they fought hard and did what they had to do, but died because they are heroes...not Gods.
ps...I thought the fact that they are heroes connects with what we did for homework about the five notable heroes...just saying :)
The relationship between Aeneas and Turnus is like Hector and Achilles in the fact that they are enemies and hate each other! They have a fudge just like Hector and Achilles. Aeneas and Turnus were fighting about Lavinia and Achilles and Hector were fighting about who was stronger and to see who was better.
Rereading the story of Hector and Achilles, I found that Achilles reminded me of Turnus in that they are definitely not merciful. That is, they'll kill someone without a thought of how the victim's life and loved one's lives would be affected, if it was truly necessary to kill the person, etc. For example, "Then he [Aeneas]saw Turnus had on the gold sword belt he had torn off dying Turnus. He shouted out, 'Did you let the boy live?...'" Because of the way I stuck that quote in, I would just like to say that when Aeneas shouts, 'Did you let the boy live?', he's not actually asking Turnus if he let Pallas live, but is basically being sarcastic, thus answering his own question. Of course Turnus didn't let Pallas live.
In comparing Aeneas to Achilles, I found that they both basically kill who they "have to" kill, but Aeneas, I think, is a lot more merciful than Achilles. In fact, he almost doesn't kill Turnus until he noticed that Turnus was wearing the belt that was dead Pallas', angering him greatly. So much so, that he killed Turnus. "Aeneas listened to him [Turnus] and drew back, as if to spare him. Then he saw Turnus had on the gold sword belt he had torn off dying Pallas."
I agree with you sofia! oh and alison...define the term "a fudge" I think I know what you mean....but I don't know that just sounded a little foreign to me....
Quite honestly, I found common connections keeping some of these characters together, not of which most would assume would go together. I found that Hector and Achilles both seemed to have a connection towards Aeneas rather than Turnus as well. Turnus's passion for fighting and his lust for violence seems to be floating above an shallow sort of violence oriented personality. Achilles's violence orientation seems twisted with his past and his anger rather than just the gratuitous aspect of it. So I would propose that rather Aeneas's be similar to Hector and Achilles due to the emotional aspect of him displayed by Hector, and the confrontational way of expressing one's anger displayed by Achilles throughout their stories and conflict.
20 comments:
In response to the prompt, I find it helpful to compare them through the lense of a definition of heroism from Lavinia. Throughout the book, the theme of heroic action is heavily discussed. In response to Lavinia's questioning of Aeneas' heroism in war, Virgil pinpoints an interesting definition of a hero; Aeneas is a hero "because he does what he has to do." This is quite evident in the recent reading we've done. Aeneas comes seeking peace, but is forced to fight, and is forced to kill Turnus to end the war. Turnus didn't need to start this war, and this makes him less heroic according to Virgil's definition. In the story of Hector and Achilles, this is evident as well. Hector fights Achilles because he needs to, and it could be argued that Achilles is also doing what he has to do by fighting Hector. In contrast, there is no reason for Achilles to disrespect the body of Hector, and this takes away from Achilles heroic-ness.
I'll be checking in. . .
Comparing Aeneas to Achilles: Although Aeneas doesn't spare Turnus's life, he is certainly more merciful than Achilles. He hesitated before killing him, and the deciding factor was memory of Turnus's previous mercilessness to an innocent youth. Turnes's body, unlike Hector's, is sent to his father for a proper burial.
Turnus to Hector:
It is interesting that they both have a sequence of trying to escape from their attacker before standing to fight them. The author (in both instances) may have chosen this as some kind of foreshadowing for the outcome of the battle. Perhaps the character knows intuatively that he will be defeated? Also, both characters when they know they have been defeated ask for a decent burial.
This is Rosamund.
i agree with both Jake and Rosamund.....Turnus is mroe like Hector and Aeneas is more like Achilles!!!!!
Prompt answer:
On a purely logistical note, Aeneas and Turnus fight (to the death) just outside the city gates, just as Achilles and Hector do...
Anyways...
In his great plot re-representation of the Iliad-Odyssey combo, Virgil tries to parallel certain characters to fill certain plot points. On this way of thinking, then, Turnus and Aeneas fill certain roles to the best of their abilities. The lens of "Lavinia", which shades our view of Aeneas and Turnus a particular, subjective shade, is the only real problem in comparing the true natures of the four characters presented for discussion by Mr. Durning. At first glance, as Jake, Turner and Rosamund have pointed out, Aeneas would seem a kind of Achilles and Turnus a kind of Hector. This is most readily justified by the fact the, as Achilles kills Hector, Aeneas kills Turnus. But lets think about the true, comparable characteristics of the respective character's natures, though. Is not Hector the one to consider his decisions and their potential consequences before and after he goes ahead with them? Then I would consider him more analogous to Aeneas, on Lavinia's descriptions. And the same with Turnus, going ahead with plans as the moment would require them - sans consideration. There is specific text evidence which leads me to infer that Aeneas is the considerate and Turnus is the rash, just as there is with Hector and Achilles. There is also specific text evidence in Lavinia concerning is "rages", which are very similar - on the surface - to those of Achilles. But again, we, as readers of "Lavinia" are hearing about Turnus and Aeneas through an object lens, rather than that of the neutral narrator...
How does this subject lens effect the way we must, then, regard the characters of Aeneas and Turnus as apposed to Hector and Achilles?
Whoaaa...
I agree so much with everyone so far but it's so difficult for me to relate Turnus to Hector or Achilles to Aneas. I think they are all so different and in any pair made of the four it would still be hard to hit the nail right on the head with similarities.
So, having said that I actually dissagree with Turner and a little bit with Jake and Rosamund.
I think that Aneas and Achilled are similar although Aneas actually ends up killing Turnus but they are also very different because Achilles seems less in control of himself and Aeneas as said by Virgil is very pious, which is a difference he also shares with Turnus.
Turnus and Aeneas are very similar as well except in the detail in the above paragraph. Turnus and Achilles both like to fight and are very good at is as well.
Aeneas can be related to Hector because they are both very strong and powerful but Hector is not the strongest while Aeneas proves himself to be by killing Turnus.
Checking in.
Matt...why and how are you SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO smart???
I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
checking in
Hey Matt,
I agree - actually, that's what I was trying to articulate, although not as eloquently. Although Achilles has reason to fight Hector, he disrespects his body, and this is what makes him less of a hero like Turnus, who starts a war he doesn't need to. I agree that Turnus is more like Achilles, and Hector is more like Aeneas.
Checking in again. . .
After I look at all the comments, everyone has mainly explained everything that I can. Later I realized that I was about to say the exact same thing that Rocco said about their characteristics. In this fight between Achilles and Hector, Hector thinks too hard before he actually does anything and Achilles does everything he could before he thinks about what he is doing but this leads him to winning, I thought the reason was because Achilles does all the things faster than Hector. The same thing does not really occur with Aeneas and Turnus because in this story it does not really show or say anything about how either of the characters have a weak point about the thing that I said before. So I do think that these characters are similar in someways but they aren't in some.
I also realized that the relationship between the two characters are kind of the same because they both have to fight each other in order to stop the war and they are rivals.
In history we discussed the different attributes of Hector and Achilles, and these are my interpretations/opinions about them:
Hector= super strong,powerful, acts out of blind rage, cruel
Achilles= thinks before he acts, a bit fearful, weaker than hector but still very strong
In a way I think Turnus is a combination of the weaknesses of both characters. He is weaker than Aeneas (still strong but...) and he is cruel and acts out of blind hatred. On the other hand I think Aeneas is a combination of the strengths of both characters. He is extremely strong, he isn't fearful, but he thinks before he acts and he is kind. Aeneas, being human probably does have some flaws. But they aren't shown in this text. And also Turnus has some strengths. But in the text Aeneas's strengths are played up and Turnus's strengths are played down. Making it seem that Aeneas is all good, and Turnus is all bad.
I agree with jake and Rosamund
to the facts that In both stories it has to do with heroism. Both Hector and and the book lavinia have to do with war heros. A lot of the book is about war and lavinia outside view on things as well as hector we were getting his view on things. To alborate to Rosamunds Archilles and Aeneas does remind me of eachother because they let their vengernce getthe better of them in both stories
It's Hunter :)
I totally agree with Jake on saying they did what they had to do and comparing the heroic definition from each story. I want to add that I think Turnus and Hector are very similar. This is because they both die because someone else hunts them down(in Lavinia) and they battle it out(in Hector and Achilles). I think they fought hard and did what they had to do, but died because they are heroes...not Gods.
ps...I thought the fact that they are heroes connects with what we did for homework about the five notable heroes...just saying :)
checking in...
The relationship between Aeneas and Turnus is like Hector and Achilles in the fact that they are enemies and hate each other! They have a fudge just like Hector and Achilles. Aeneas and Turnus were fighting about Lavinia and Achilles and Hector were fighting about who was stronger and to see who was better.
This is Alison Remmers!
checking in...
This is Sofia...
Rereading the story of Hector and Achilles, I found that Achilles reminded me of Turnus in that they are definitely not merciful. That is, they'll kill someone without a thought of how the victim's life and loved one's lives would be affected, if it was truly necessary to kill the person, etc. For example, "Then he [Aeneas]saw Turnus had on the gold sword belt he had torn off dying Turnus. He shouted out, 'Did you let the boy live?...'" Because of the way I stuck that quote in, I would just like to say that when Aeneas shouts, 'Did you let the boy live?', he's not actually asking Turnus if he let Pallas live, but is basically being sarcastic, thus answering his own question. Of course Turnus didn't let Pallas live.
In comparing Aeneas to Achilles, I found that they both basically kill who they "have to" kill, but Aeneas, I think, is a lot more merciful than Achilles. In fact, he almost doesn't kill Turnus until he noticed that Turnus was wearing the belt that was dead Pallas', angering him greatly. So much so, that he killed Turnus. "Aeneas listened to him [Turnus] and drew back, as if to spare him. Then he saw Turnus had on the gold sword belt he had torn off dying Pallas."
I agree with you sofia! oh and alison...define the term "a fudge" I think I know what you mean....but I don't know that just sounded a little foreign to me....
checking in...:]
Checkin in...
Quite honestly, I found common connections keeping some of these characters together, not of which most would assume would go together. I found that Hector and Achilles both seemed to have a connection towards Aeneas rather than Turnus as well. Turnus's passion for fighting and his lust for violence seems to be floating above an shallow sort of violence oriented personality. Achilles's violence orientation seems twisted with his past and his anger rather than just the gratuitous aspect of it. So I would propose that rather Aeneas's be similar to Hector and Achilles due to the emotional aspect of him displayed by Hector, and the confrontational way of expressing one's anger displayed by Achilles throughout their stories and conflict.
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