In this reading, we encounter warfare in a more direct way than we have before. What inferences can we make about the way the author presents warfare in this section? What observations would support your inference?
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23 comments:
this reading made me think of this quote...
"History is a commentary and the various and continuing incapabilities of men. What is History?? History is women following behind...with a bucket"
-Alan Bennett
war is scary, shocking, tragic and heartbreaking
"Mars! Mavors! Macte esto!"
"The shouting was frenzied now, the air shook and rocked with it"
Turnus is an idiot and a coward!!!!!!!!!!
Since the book is told from Lavinia's point of view, and Lavinia is not present at any of the battle scenes, often the author describes battles in an indirect way. Lavinia herself says something to this effect on page 132. However, there are battle scenes described in vivid detail. In truth Lavinia probably didn't know enough of this detail to tell, but the author gives himself a little leeway here so he can use his gore effect.
Supporting observations: pg. 136. "They cut the throats of ten or twenty helpless, drunken men before their blood lust and greed were sated,"
"Turnus, utterly fearless, hacked and hewed his way in that opened gate, not even looking to see if his men were following him."
Lavinia probably wouldn't have known this detail.
It's Rosamund.
i very much agree with rosamund....her point is very true!!!
This is Hunter.
My inference is...
When it comes to war, everyone just wants to fight, not to discuss. No thoughts, just action.
My observations/support of this are...
"'Are we to be ruled by strangers?' he shouted, and the crowd around shouted like thunder in the streets, 'No!'"
That supports my inference because everyone is agreeing with one person and when only one person's opinion seems to matter, that is really bad and it shows how unthoughtful people can be.
The author portrays the war gruesomely, but juxtaposes this with an
underlying theme discussing what heroism entails. This is highlighted when
Lavinia grapples with this, questioning "the horrible list of
carnage" the poet had told her, asking "what was it for?"
She answers herself, quoting the poet, saying that "without war there
are no heroes." This juxtaposition of vividly violent imagery, and
Lavinia's response creates a very interesting depiction of the war, and
tells s a lot about Lavinia.
Checking in. . .
Lavinia presents war as a childish thing.
Examples:
Page 130: It all seemed like the games boys play.
Also, I don't mean to take this from Hunter, we had the same idea,
Pg 123,
"Are we to be ruled by strangers?" Heshouted and the crowd all round shouted like thunder in the streets, "No!" - "Is my promised bride to be given to a foreigner?" - "No!"
I feel like this kind of rally thing is childish.
As Hunter said, they just want to fight, not for what they say, but for the sake of fighting. It's like someone looking for a reason to fight, and its stupid. It's an immature thing to do as well because it shows that someone can't control themself, just as a child can't control themself when they throw a fit.
I'll be checking in...
Rocco
Checking in.
WOW turner thats an intense quote!
In the reading in Lavinia the war is addressed with the mob that comes after the king and Lavinia. They are working on war and going into war because they dont like the innovators. I had the same quote as Rocco, It all seemed like the games boys play. (pg 130) This is showing the behavior that they men had during the war time, which is now in the book!
BTW....... This is ALISON REMMERS!!!!!
CHECKING IN!!!!!!!!!!
War is a bloody mess...but it must be done. People need to conquor land and riches for various reasons. In the prossess of all this there is much bloodshed and pain. The blood flies and the families weep. It can be great if won...tragic if lost. Lavinia describes much of this vividly.
"Their heads were cut off, stuck on poles, and paraded in front of the Trojan ramparts at dawn"
i thought this displayed the gore, dirtiness, tragic, bloody, yet happy and successful sides of war.
The author presents war as terrible, worthless but at the same time, a necessary action (according to the circumstances surrounding it). I mean to say that this war is fought and it is terrible; but, as there is an unbelievable amount of pressure from Turnus/Amata's camp and Latinus/Aeneas' camp war is the only way to relieve it. This is, though, a silly war! Fought for a girl's whim. "It's all about you woman!... Why would not marry that king Turnus? all this killing for a girls whim!" But, it would seem everyone everyone is aware of this fact. Lavinia goes on to say, "I'm doing what I have to do, Urso, we all are." Lavinia knows this war is necessary... the poet has told her so (and we know it must take place to lead to the founding of Rome). The fact that those in the moment consider this war silly, and those able to foresee the future may consider its importance shows how ironic and "human" the nature of war is to begin with. It is truly the product of a human lack of the ability to think forward, as well as the hidden drive for progress in everything we do.
I agree with Hunter that people when they are in the act of warfare, they don't think, they act in "blind rage" (as mr. gregg put it in history when we talked about hector/achilles).
My inference:
War can be prevented if people try to understand each other, and act wisely. When war happens it is as turner said "shocking, tragic and heartbreaking" because the problem around which it circles could've been solved another way. It is because men/women when angry and starting war/arguments they are blind to all true wisdom. They are trying to defend what they believe. But, they should solve it some other way. Violence is NOT the answer.
Supporting Observations:
* (king speaking) "An oracle has spoken. A promise has been given. If you defy the voice that guides us, if you break the treaty I made, you do wrong. You will pay for that wrongdoing in blood. You know that. That is all I can say to you."
This is the king making a plea to his people- please don't fight, you don't need to, fate will work out in the end anyway, this is what is supposed to happen, THINK for a minute- don't act in blind rage and pay for it in the death of many, many innocent people!
I hate violence. I hate arguments. There is always another way.
the war is for no real reason,or things escalate very quickly.
.silvias stag was shot, her family got mad and started a fight.
it seems like games children play
my inference is that war is a horrid and cruel thing that is just used to hurt someone else instead of a another resolution,and to makes heros.
I was looking at Hunters and I compleatly agree with her My evidence
THIS IS REALLY OBVIOUS
"Without War their are no heros"
This supports my inference because it shows that war is just a game to mark men for their killings and not to solve anything.
checking in...
My inference from this reading is that you can easily start war. In this part of the book, war just starts with opening a gate called the war gate.("A great cheer went up of "Mars! Mavors! Macte esto!" and people came dancing and calling that the Gate of War was open.") Also if there is some conflict between two people from different countries, this will start war. (Turnus vs. Latinus)
checking in...I agree with nami that huge wars can be started very easily. Even with one word said. one misunderstanding and the people are already overtaken with rage. good night everyone!
checking in
I agree with Alex that war is a point that in their society can not be avoided. They expanded their nation not by colinazation but by conquest...so basicly they expanded by killing other people. I also agree with Rosymund that Lavina was probobly not present during the war. Its not like direct observations that she is making it is more indirect!
Checking in.
This is Sofia...
I can infer that most of the people of Latinum want the Trojans gone, and gone for good. For example, "...content with their day's work and ready to break into the camp next morning and finish off the Trojans. So then, if Turnus had a plan, it was extermination."
Also...
"'Well, seems they won't be going back where they came from, those Trojins!'"
checking in....
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