The story of Ascanius and and Atys is told indirectly, but it turns out to be important.
1. Please try to establish what the story of Ascanius and Atys is. Someone attempt a plot summary (just of their relationship and how it bars on the book) and then people can offer amendments to the thie original plot summary if necessary. Then
2. Address the question: how did their story end up being important to more than just Ascanius and Atys?
3. How does their story reflect what we have learned already in this book about character? For example, you might think about the energizing passion v. reason/piety/morality dynamic.
1. Please try to establish what the story of Ascanius and Atys is. Someone attempt a plot summary (just of their relationship and how it bars on the book) and then people can offer amendments to the thie original plot summary if necessary. Then
2. Address the question: how did their story end up being important to more than just Ascanius and Atys?
3. How does their story reflect what we have learned already in this book about character? For example, you might think about the energizing passion v. reason/piety/morality dynamic.
4. If you'd like, compare the story of Achilles and Patroclus with the story of Ascanius and Atys.
OR
4. Ask a question about the reading (anything about it), or about something earlier in the book; or try to answer such a question that another student has raised.
OR
4. Ask a question about the reading (anything about it), or about something earlier in the book; or try to answer such a question that another student has raised.
26 comments:
Why would Lavinia coninue to live her life in thr forest when so many things are happening around her that she(being the queen after all) should be taking care of instead of hiding?
I understand where the reference to the owl at the end of the reading, but what I dont understand is really what is the reason for the owl and what about the owl that makes such a big statement?
This is Alison...
well i feel like animals in general are really important to the story, for the owl I think that she does actually refer to the owl at the end but in the story she kind of acts like one. They have huge eyes right and Lavinia uses her eyes to watch them the poeple come to her home. Then she fllies away into the woods
Alison--
Owls are symbols of cleverness, swiftness, firocity, and intellegence. (Like you know those old cartoons and stuff where the have the owl wearing glasses and the owl is like the wise one..?) Its almost a symbol for the story as a whole. The cleverness lies/intellegence lies within the story and the characters and even in the future with Romulus and Remus. The firocity and swiftness are both components in war. So, the owl very clearly shows what they NEED, what the WANT in their communities. Also, like Austin said, Lavinia was observing people like an owl watching from the tree branch...does that help?
> I think Austin's question is interesting. It does seem odd for a queen to be living in the forest, by choice without the luxuries of a kingdom. I think this has to do with her "wolf" energy. She cares so much about her son, and who takes care of him, that she is willing to do absoloutly anything to keep Ascanius from getting him. These are her priorities, and this illustrates a lot about her character. Her sacrifices are taken as virtues by the community, who build a better house in the woods for her. I don't think her act is purely selfless though. She feels like she would lose her sanity without her son, and even worries about becoming like her mother if she lost him. Also, this particular wood is a sign of peace and calmness for her from her childhood.
Now on the subject of Atys and Ascanius. Atys and Ascanius are described as "childhood lovers," and their connection stayed strong through Ascanius' marriage, although there is rumor that their relationship may not have ceased in childhood. Atys leads a small army to fight the Etruscans, oddly without Ascanius. Although they experienced success, Atys was hit in the head by a rock and died. Ascanius is deeply upset over Atys' death, and in a burst of rage, accused his wife of being unfaithful. His wife left shortly after. Lots of gossip spread about Ascanius' relationship with Atys, including that Ascanius had a fight with Atys, and that he sent him as punishment, and that their relationship had lasted since childhood.
Small revisions to Jake's summary:
1. Ascanius and Atys were already stated in the story to be childhood lovers, it isn't just part of the gossip going around afterward.
2. Atys and his army were not overall successful when fighting the Etruscans, as they are described as "retreating back to the river (the boarder) and having to give up all the cattle they had taken". (Not exact quotation.)
This whole incident is highly important to the story for the main reason that it puts the king in a highly fowl mood, and into a state where he cannot, apparently, preform his duties as king and leader of his household. This suggestion is put across when Someone approaches Ascanius's room with the news of the missing gods for the first time since Atys's death, and Ascanius is described as wanting to pray, but falling back into misery and having to retreat to his room in tears.
This is Rosamund.
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building off of Austin's.....
How did Lavinia become "disciplined" and "not stuck up" snobby" or "argogant" like a rich stereotypical queen of Rome might be??? Childhood??? Something happened in this book? At the begining of the book i though she was going to be a rather "snobby aragant" queen but apartly not....WHY????
What makes Lavinia the way she is???
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What makes Lavinia how she is?
She grew up as a prominent person is society because her father was king, she was shaped by her mother and the people around her. She has always been pretty sheltered as a princess and now a queen and it makes her curious.
Turner, I like this question but it should be more specific.
My question is:
Are there any more reasons Lavinia is so curious other than what I already said?
thats true rocco.....but wouldn't her being "sheltered as a princess and nwo a queen" contribute to a more "negative attitude-ness" type thing???? evidence???????
1. Ascanius and Atys' relationship helps clear up why it took so long for Ascanius to get married. If he was in a relationship with Atys and wasn't really into finding a wife, it must have been hard to just marry because he needs an heir and it's strange for a king to not have a wife. Earlier in the book, it said something about how he had no sexual interests in women and didn't like them as companions, so it would definitely make sense that Ascanius and Atys had been in a relationship this whole time.
2. I think their story ended up being important to more than just Ascanius and Atys because Ascanius' wife, Silica, left because she tried to comfort Ascanius and he blew up at her. Because she left, now he doesn't have an heir, and so the kingdom is somewhat torn apart. Another factor playing into their story effecting more than just them is Ascanius goes into a type of depression after his death and won't come out of his room so the king isn't doing his job, he's just moping around by himself.
3. Their story reflects what we've already learned about character because the fact that him and Atys were most likely in a relationship is an example of energizing passion and the fact that Ascanius ignores his kingly duties after Atys' death is versing the reason, which is not good reason.
4. So, I have a question...
I am really dying to know if Ascanius sent Atys to fight the Etruscans? I'm a bit confused...was it for punishment?
1. Ascanius because he respects his childhood friend/lover Atys so much put him in charge of the army. When he dies, Ascanius is very emotional. And he doesn't hide it. He weeps and holds on to Atys body. He gets mad at his wife when she tries to comfort him and even says that the reason she can't bare children is because she is a (I am quoting here since I don't know what else to say...please excuse my language...) "whore". I personally think this is irrelevant to Atys death and she was just trying to help...it gets back to the point that Ascanius doesn't particularly enjoy the presence of them- even only as friends...and he is sexually attracted to men. It is suggested by the people in this story that Ascanius and Atys were lovers up until and perhaps even after his marriage. Ascanius essentially kicked his wife out of his house...and she had to go live with friends. Poor woman!!!
2. This clears up alot about Ascanius' character. It explains (as was mentioned before) why it took him such a long time to get married. It also explains why he is mean to women most of the time. I wonder...(this is going into speculation mode sorry...) if at times when he was especially frustrated with himself and others around him if maybe his relationship with Atys wasn't going well- if his wife was getting in the way...hmmmm... I know it gets deeper than just his attitude towards women....I'll have to think about that....
3. Ascanius' passion for Atys, especially after his death effects his moral choices...in a very negative way. He neglects his duties, kicks his wife out of his home and essentially hides in his chambers weeping constantly. I know that feeling (in a different context) but the feeling that you just need to cry for a long time and you want to throw your responsibilities out the window. But under ANY circumstance it's a bad idea. But I still feel SUPER DUPER BAD for Ascanius!
4. The Achilles/Patroclus story is very similar to the Ascanius/Atys story. Achilles and Patroclus are best friends and (in some versions of the story) lovers. When Patroclus dies, Achilles essentially loses his mind. He kills people cruelly out of blind rage, and he weeps bitterly. This is very similar to Ascanius' state of mind at the time of Atys death (lets just hope he doesn't kill a bunch of innocent people!!)....
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To answer's Austin's very first question I think that for Lavinia to leave the forest would, yes, help her people as she is the queen but also, I don't think that it would be fair to herself to leave. Lavinia seems to be connected with the idea of absence to her Queen-ship in ways that are shown through her own visions and events played out in the book previously. The way she describes herself as a wolf despite her individuality is a connection between her and the forest, especially when she welcomed wolves as her brother. If Lavinia did return to as Queen I feel as though she may not have any sort of deep rooted substantial meaning in that place. Once again she will put rule over her people, but is that her destiny this far as we've seen it?
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Austin asked the question of why Lavinia is hiding in the fores and not doing her duty. I think ha she is doing her duty. She is raising her son so that the kingdom which she grew up in will have a great king, not someone like Ascanius. Also she is following what the oracle said and by doing that is fuffilling her and her son's destiny. So yeah she is definetley doing the right thing, and it's not like she is the actual queen because she does not have full control Ascanius does.
Anywasy I wanted to say how much it hurt my brain when Lavinia was talking about her vvoice. The author never gave her a voice so she asks why she speaks. And she asks all of these questions tha really make me think she is controlling who she is. Nobody gave her a complete personality but only planned out her life. I don't know it was just really hard tot hink about.
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As some people mentioned, I am still confused about why Ascanius would send Atys to war when he is a very important person to him...
Answering Turner's question of why Lavinia isn't the stereotypical kind of character. I think that she isn't this type of character because she has gone through many deaths which made her think differently and also act differently because she is mature compared to other queens. I also think that it is because she always has great responsibility so that if she was the stereotypical kind of queen, she would not be able to finish her work.
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To Ms. Remers: In my opinion, the owl is a sign of wilderness, of being so far lost the only noise comes from a secretive bird that lives high up in the trees and comes out only by night. The owl is a cry of solitude, especially when no other owl answers it. But the owl holds a special significance to Lavinia. The last words Aeneas spoke were to the boy he had pinned down at the neck after after he tried to rustle some of Aneas' flocks. Those words were 'go on, go'. In Lavinia's language, such an expression sounds as one syllable, something like 'i-i, i-i'. these are the very syllables of the owls call! So, the owl is for Lavinia a constant reminder of her dead lover. It must stab her each time, yet warm her with nostalgic remembrance. So sad.
As to the importance of Atys and Ascanius: Firstly, this is gay love we are talking about. Ascanius and Atys obviously had a thing, a sexual thing, and that thing lasted well into Ascanius' marriage. As the rumors spread, the idea of gay love is spread to. How do the Latins feel about this custom, so central to the social life of Greek males? I believe the the general reaction to Ascanius' wild sadness is confused.His actions are foreign to the schema's of Latins. How, though, will this turn effect Ascanius' reign as king? Will he be able to recover? He is certainly now an embittered man. Maybe there was some sort of internal conflict which is intensifying the grief for Ascanius, like they were in disagreement about something before Atys left...
Who knows?
This is Sofia...
I personally like Jake's summary and I can't really think of anything to add to it. I think that Ascanius and Atys' story is important because I feel that Ascanius might be ashamed of himself for taking part in a same-sex relationship and decided to take out this frustration on Atys' by shouting at him and telling him that he was ashamed of him. I think this story is important to more people than just them in that, if this story was not found out about and Atys had not died, Ascanius wouldn't have had an emotional breakdown, which made him an unstable king, thus affecting everyone.
My question is similar, if not identical, to the question Lavinia asked during this reading, and it has been tugging at my brain: If Virgil gave Lavinia almost no character at all, where did she get it? Where did it come from?
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Why do they never bring up "wolves" in the book specifically? They refer to it often, and it seems that the Roman culture finds the wolf a good animal to be like. However, they never explain the true reason why wolves were important to that culture.
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