For students to share comments about the evening's reading assignment, and for miscellaneous class assignments
Wednesday, November 12, 2008
Lavinia 246-257
have you noticed the reference to owls? Keep watching for them.
Please comment on a place in the reading where setting is important to the meaning; or where diction is important to the meaning; or where imagery is important to the meaning.
29 comments:
Anonymous
said...
I thought In what I resad owls's were actually a some what dominate theme. The fact that she sneaks a round to not seen by Ascanius and runs in to the forest(owl usal home) kind of seems like an owl to me. You know how it kind off lerks there see's whats going on and when you notice it, it flies away.
"for wolves" that favt that also wolves once again show up because she responded we are the wolves because they are being hunted. Over all in the whole book They're constantly compared to animals espacally WOLVES like the promt yesterday.
The effect of imagery and setting in this reading is very interesting. The description of Albunea changes throughout the book; described as located in a "grassy glade deep in the forest," and that "the presence and power of the sacred, was strong and strange," in the beginning, while describing it as "derelict and lonesome" now. I think this change illustrates the challenges Lavinia has gone through; I think she is more lonely now, after losing Aeneas and her father.
The imagery in this seciton is more pronounced than I remember it ever being before. I aprticularly liked the description of the hut.
here's a small excerpt "I went on cleaning out the hut, and made us beds of young pine boughs I tore from saplings".
I think that this is a very sicnificant part of the imagery. The reason for that is because it yet again can be reltaed to the whole wolf metaphor. It shows that they are using their instincts and learning how to survive. Survival and instincts are key to wolves existence.
I agree with Alex. Though, I want to point out something that could either slightly go against or even put more emphasis on her point. It says, on page 248, "Trees had grown up and closed in high round hut, and I almost almost passed it without seeing it." You could look at this two different ways.
Way one: it is going against Alex's point where she relates their survival instincts to the wolves intense ability to survive in such conditions. It says that Lavinia nearly missed seeing it, which would suggest that her sharpness--concerning survival--isnt necesarily compare-able to a wolf.
However...
Way two: it could add higher stakes to her point. The fact that the hut was SO highly concealed, and Lavinia still managed to see it, shows that her senses and ability to spot things that are disguiesed are pretty good. That trait is definitely one that a wolf has.
So, I think it's completely up to the reader to make these connections and decide whether or not the metaphor is contradicted. It is something that the author made the decision to let us choose. I would say, Alex is right. But that's just MY take on it.
We came to the forester's cottage where Maruna used to spend the night while the poet and I talked in the sacred grove. Trees had grown up and closed in on the high round hut, and I almost passed it without seeing it. The clearing and what had been the kitchen garden were rank with brambles and tall weeds. I called out. No one answered. I went to the door and saw the house was desolate. The woodcutter and his wife had gone elsewhere, or were dead.
The imagery here is important because it brings up what used to happy before she was married, before war and before everything that has happened in the last 100 pages or so.
I'm talking about owls AND imagery! wow! Two owls with one stone! Ok so On page 252+253 "The creatures of the night made separate sounds, rustling and scratchings, near and far on the forest floor; an owl called once, from the right, far away up on the hillside, a long quavering i-i-i. I felt no urgent presence of the spirits of the place. It was all silent, all sacred." Actually, this could be setting too. Lavinia describes the feeling she gets when the owl calls, and how all is silent after that. Lavinia mentions an owl calling from a certain direction every time she goes to Albunea. She also described it when she was with her mother. Usually she would say that one answered from the other direction, but when she was with her mother in the woods with their women she uses the phrase "None answered." This two word sentence was very effective describing the setting and also putting across the feeling of her loneliness.
Imagery: At dawn we rose and set out to the spring..Page 254..helps me imagine what it was like when they were doing it. That can also be an example of plot.
Diction: Lifes hard for those who live a part from others, even if they have a roof and a full grany...there is something about these words that help me imagine and feel what it is like..
So, like most everyone else, I'm commenting on imagery. On page 254 it says, "While Silvius explored about the cave, I sat on the rock outcrop and watched the sunlight strike across the pale water through the low mists that always hung above it." I think this is an example of imagery which shows Silvius' and Lavinia's characters. The fact that Silvius explores the cave shows how eager he is to learn and what Lavinia does shows how observant and careful to detail that she is.
I think during the reading there was a very prominent sign of diction corresponding with meaning. the excerpt reads, "He was dirty, thorn scratched and tired, had snared a big hare, and was proud of himself." This section seems to order itself in a way where Lavinia notices these aspects of him in a specific order in relative perspective to the importance of its meaning. I noticed how even after an "and" she continues to list but by doing so isolating "had snared a big hare" and "was proud of himself". This seems to not just give insight onto Lavinia's opinion but go back to wolf theme in last night's blog. Lavinia in this part plays a mother, and her son is bringing back food because they only have each other to take care of. Now although in a wolf world Lavinia would technically be getting the food, her being noting on his pride in the catch connects quite well with the wolf attitude being subtly hinted at.
"A shaft of sunlight struck through the gloom of the pines and oaks all around and made it war there"
beautiful imagery, I can really pictue it and feel the warmth of the sunlight that the authro describes.
Imagery AND diction
"The next day, as the sun hung red above the sea mist in the west..."
this is great imagery of the "hanging" sun which is red over the sea mist...beautiful!!! and also the diction becuase of the sun "hung red" and "the sea mist" are beautiful images but also there word frazing and word choice makes it noticeable, stnad out, and beautiful!!!
Other...
"'Ah,' I said. 'Well, dear son, I think maybe we are the wolves.'"
interesting quote that Lavinia says..notice how she says "dear son"...i noticed a close relationship (mother-son) between Silvius and Lavinia that is MUCH different than Lavinia and Ascanius....interesting.
Also, it is another reference to he wolves in the book and also some interesting omen/foreshadowing possibility
i find the "owl" theme in this book very interesting. This isn't the first time we have seen owls though...we have seen/heard an owl. I recall an owl referene when Lavinia goes to meet Albunea (perhaps a couple times) and once with when going to see her mother. Lavinia always tells us the direction in wich she hears the owl cooing from....interesting!!!!!
"An owl called once, from the right, far away up on the hillside, a long quavering i-i-i-. I felt no urgent presence of the spirits of the place. It was all silent, all sacred." Page 253.
This is imagery. It is describing the way that the owl acted and the sounds it made.
Wow.... I thought that someone would bring up the dream as imagery having meaning... Anyways, I thought that the big imagery of Lavinia's dream has a lot of meaning in the story especailly in this part of the book because she chooses what to do by what she looks at and hears in her dreams. She has had previous dreams before and she had done everything the way it goes in her dream. I also thought that this was important because it helped Lavinia make her mind up about what and where to go with Silvius in order to stay with him and not give him to Ascanius.
I found some alliterations in this text and it makes it amusing. I found a lot of alliteration especially in the examples that Jake uses in his comment.
I found this section particularly moving in a lot of ways...maybe it's just my mood. But I think there is a lot of meaning to be found. And as it has been mentioned before, there is a good amount of imagery in this section....I'd like to pick out a few critical moments as examples:
On pg. 246: "Silvius and I went down the street, slipped out through the postern gate of the town, and struck across the fields, across the las pagus, following the course of the Prati into the wooded foothills northwest under cover of the new leaved oaks."
This shows the great hurry at which they are running from Ascanius, because of the many places she covers in her sentance...with great efficiency. Also-the use of the word "struck" makes me think that they are sprinting...
On pg. 248: (talking about the cottage) "Trees had grown up and closed in on the high round hut, and I almost passed it without seeing it. The clearing and what had been the kitchen garden we rank with brambles and tall weeds. I called out. No one answered. I went to the door and saw the house was desolate. The woodcutter and his wife had gone elsewhere, or were dead."
This is important, because it shows the time that has passed since Lavinia has been to this spot. It also to me represents the hopelessness of Silvius and Lavinia's state of being/mind is at that very moment.
On pg. 252: "The next day, as the sun hung red above the sea mist in the west, we followed the narrow path into the grove of Albunea and came to the sacred enclosure."
also on pg. 252: "The stars burned white through the black leaves of the trees."
I think it is interesting that after such a long time...Lavinia in her trouble goes back to Albunea. This is what moved me the most I think. It's like when you are having a hard time, you just want to go home. You want to go to the places that comforted you as a child. We, or at least I tend to seek stability. And going back to the things that were always helpful for us as a child, helps us find ourselves, helps us find our stability. We all have and need those places of stability. Whether it be a country or state, a house, a particular room, a studio, and maybe even a PERSON. Yes, a person is not a place. But they can also be used for stability. Especially people you have known for a long time and trust very much. I think this is shown in this section....when Lavinia is in Albunea and she seeks the poet, and she seeks Aeneas. She is seeking stability, help from the people who were with her when she was most successful-she NEEDS THEM DESPERATELY right now. Here is the moment where we see this:
On pg. 253: "After a long time, when the constellations had changed, I spoke to the poet, not aloud but in my mind. 'Dear poet, all you told me came to me. You guided me truly, up to Aeneas' death. Since then I've let others lead me. But I go astray. I can't trust Ascanius-he doesn't know his own enmity to Silvius. I wish you were here to guide me now. I wish you could sing to me'"
Lastly, here is one moment that I thought was defining-I thought diction was important to it's meaning. And I think it showed us more clearly the relationship between Silvius and Lavinia:
On pg. 249:
"I stroked his hard, slight shoulder, still sweaty from our quick walk. 'Son of Aeneas.' I kissed him. He kissed me back 'I won't leave you,' he said. 'Never.' 'Oh, never and forever aren't for mortals, love. But we won't be parted till I know it's right that we part.' 'It's never, then,' he said."
that's it for now....sorry for the long blog. This section just had so much meaning to pull out of it!!!!!!
I'm not 100% sure if this counts as diction, but on page 253, when Aeneas' father, King Anchises, speaks as if to Aeneas in Lavinia's dream, he says, "'...your last child, whom your wife Lavinia will bring up in the woods, a king, a father of kings." I felt that the order and choice of the words was important in that, if it was said differently or more casually, it wouldn't have as much as an effect.
Also, for the imagery, "Below me lay a vast landscape of shadows, forests of shadowy trees. Out beyond those trees I saw my son standing in dim sunlight on the bank of a river, a river wider than Tiber, so broad and misty I could not clearly see the other shore." I feel that this example of imagery is very important in that it gives a clear description of what Lavinia was picturing and puts a vivid image in my own mind.
The oracle itself points towards the importance of nature in this reading especially; "A King of kings that Lavinia will raise in the forest". The forest, then, represents a kind of middle ground where it is sacrilegious to do any kind of harm to any one. It is impious to do wrong within the sacred groves of trees. In the nature of the oracle, we see that the setting itself is pious. I guess this might correlate with the gravitas and religio of the Latin people. Gravitas, in that these people respect their oracle enough to leave a political dispute alone; Religio in that their respect for their oracle would cause them to join toward a common cause of letting Lavinia raise Silvius alone in the pious-ness of the woodland setting.
here is an exerpt that shows imagery and characterization...
"A shaft of sunlight struck throgh the gloom of the pines and oaks all around and made it warm there. Silvius sat down next to me. I looked at his thin brown boy legs and the shoes that were too heavy for his feet. He leaned his head against me. "They dont want to kill us, do they, mother?" he asked , not with terror but for reassurance."
The description of the sun coming through the forest is imagery. The description of the boy on the outside is characterization, but could also be seen as imagery as well. Then after the boy talks, it shows some of his personality. I dont think this shows he is brave, but it shows he is used to this kind of thing.
29 comments:
I thought In what I resad owls's were actually a some what dominate theme. The fact that she sneaks a round to not seen by Ascanius and runs in to the forest(owl usal home) kind of seems like an owl to me. You know how it kind off lerks there see's whats going on and when you notice it, it flies away.
"for wolves" that favt that also wolves once again show up because she responded we are the wolves because they are being hunted. Over all in the whole book They're constantly compared to animals espacally WOLVES like the promt yesterday.
Checking IN (I was 1st and its long than2 scentences yay go me )
The effect of imagery and setting in this reading is very interesting. The description of Albunea changes throughout the book; described as located in a "grassy glade deep in the forest," and that "the presence and power of the sacred, was strong and strange," in the beginning, while describing it as "derelict and lonesome" now. I think this change illustrates the challenges Lavinia has gone through; I think she is more lonely now, after losing Aeneas and her father.
The imagery in this seciton is more pronounced than I remember it ever being before. I aprticularly liked the description of the hut.
here's a small excerpt "I went on cleaning out the hut, and made us beds of young pine boughs I tore from saplings".
I think that this is a very sicnificant part of the imagery. The reason for that is because it yet again can be reltaed to the whole wolf metaphor. It shows that they are using their instincts and learning how to survive. Survival and instincts are key to wolves existence.
I agree with Alex. Though, I want to point out something that could either slightly go against or even put more emphasis on her point. It says, on page 248, "Trees had grown up and closed in high round hut, and I almost almost passed it without seeing it." You could look at this two different ways.
Way one: it is going against Alex's point where she relates their survival instincts to the wolves intense ability to survive in such conditions. It says that Lavinia nearly missed seeing it, which would suggest that her sharpness--concerning survival--isnt necesarily compare-able to a wolf.
However...
Way two: it could add higher stakes to her point. The fact that the hut was SO highly concealed, and Lavinia still managed to see it, shows that her senses and ability to spot things that are disguiesed are pretty good. That trait is definitely one that a wolf has.
So, I think it's completely up to the reader to make these connections and decide whether or not the metaphor is contradicted. It is something that the author made the decision to let us choose. I would say, Alex is right. But that's just MY take on it.
We came to the forester's cottage where Maruna used to spend the night while the poet and I talked in the sacred grove. Trees had grown up and closed in on the high round hut, and I almost passed it without seeing it. The clearing and what had been the kitchen garden were rank with brambles and tall weeds. I called out. No one answered. I went to the door and saw the house was desolate. The woodcutter and his wife had gone elsewhere, or were dead.
The imagery here is important because it brings up what used to happy before she was married, before war and before everything that has happened in the last 100 pages or so.
Thanks,
Rocco
I'm talking about owls AND imagery! wow! Two owls with one stone! Ok so On page 252+253 "The creatures of the night made separate sounds, rustling and scratchings, near and far on the forest floor; an owl called once, from the right, far away up on the hillside, a long quavering i-i-i. I felt no urgent presence of the spirits of the place. It was all silent, all sacred."
Actually, this could be setting too. Lavinia describes the feeling she gets when the owl calls, and how all is silent after that.
Lavinia mentions an owl calling from a certain direction every time she goes to Albunea. She also described it when she was with her mother. Usually she would say that one answered from the other direction, but when she was with her mother in the woods with their women she uses the phrase "None answered." This two word sentence was very effective describing the setting and also putting across the feeling of her loneliness.
This is Rosamund
Checking in.
Checking in....
Imagery:
At dawn we rose and set out to the spring..Page 254..helps me imagine what it was like when they were doing it. That can also be an example of plot.
Diction:
Lifes hard for those who live a part from others, even if they have a roof and a full grany...there is something about these words that help me imagine and feel what it is like..
DANNY HUTCHINS!!!!
I will be checking in sometime....
It's Hunter.
So, like most everyone else, I'm commenting on imagery. On page 254 it says, "While Silvius explored about the cave, I sat on the rock outcrop and watched the sunlight strike across the pale water through the low mists that always hung above it." I think this is an example of imagery which shows Silvius' and Lavinia's characters. The fact that Silvius explores the cave shows how eager he is to learn and what Lavinia does shows how observant and careful to detail that she is.
I think during the reading there was a very prominent sign of diction corresponding with meaning. the excerpt reads, "He was dirty, thorn scratched and tired, had snared a big hare, and was proud of himself." This section seems to order itself in a way where Lavinia notices these aspects of him in a specific order in relative perspective to the importance of its meaning. I noticed how even after an "and" she continues to list but by doing so isolating "had snared a big hare" and "was proud of himself". This seems to not just give insight onto Lavinia's opinion but go back to wolf theme in last night's blog. Lavinia in this part plays a mother, and her son is bringing back food because they only have each other to take care of. Now although in a wolf world Lavinia would technically be getting the food, her being noting on his pride in the catch connects quite well with the wolf attitude being subtly hinted at.
checking in
wtb
Imagery
"A shaft of sunlight struck through the gloom of the pines and oaks all around and made it war there"
beautiful imagery, I can really pictue it and feel the warmth of the sunlight that the authro describes.
Imagery AND diction
"The next day, as the sun hung red above the sea mist in the west..."
this is great imagery of the "hanging" sun which is red over the sea mist...beautiful!!!
and also the diction becuase of the sun "hung red" and "the sea mist" are beautiful images but also there word frazing and word choice makes it noticeable, stnad out, and beautiful!!!
Other...
"'Ah,' I said. 'Well, dear son, I think maybe we are the wolves.'"
interesting quote that Lavinia says..notice how she says "dear son"...i noticed a close relationship (mother-son) between Silvius and Lavinia that is MUCH different than Lavinia and Ascanius....interesting.
Also, it is another reference to he wolves in the book and also some interesting omen/foreshadowing possibility
i'll wirte about the owl later
wtb
i find the "owl" theme in this book very interesting. This isn't the first time we have seen owls though...we have seen/heard an owl. I recall an owl referene when Lavinia goes to meet Albunea (perhaps a couple times) and once with when going to see her mother. Lavinia always tells us the direction in wich she hears the owl cooing from....interesting!!!!!
wtb
checking in!!!!
"An owl called once, from the right, far away up on the hillside, a long quavering i-i-i-. I felt no urgent presence of the spirits of the place. It was all silent, all sacred." Page 253.
This is imagery. It is describing the way that the owl acted and the sounds it made.
This is Alison Remmers...
checking in...
Wow.... I thought that someone would bring up the dream as imagery having meaning... Anyways, I thought that the big imagery of Lavinia's dream has a lot of meaning in the story especailly in this part of the book because she chooses what to do by what she looks at and hears in her dreams. She has had previous dreams before and she had done everything the way it goes in her dream. I also thought that this was important because it helped Lavinia make her mind up about what and where to go with Silvius in order to stay with him and not give him to Ascanius.
I found some alliterations in this text and it makes it amusing. I found a lot of alliteration especially in the examples that Jake uses in his comment.
wow jake makes a very good imagery and setting quote!
checking in!
I found this section particularly moving in a lot of ways...maybe it's just my mood. But I think there is a lot of meaning to be found. And as it has been mentioned before, there is a good amount of imagery in this section....I'd like to pick out a few critical moments as examples:
On pg. 246:
"Silvius and I went down the street, slipped out through the postern gate of the town, and struck across the fields, across the las pagus, following the course of the Prati into the wooded foothills northwest under cover of the new leaved oaks."
This shows the great hurry at which they are running from Ascanius, because of the many places she covers in her sentance...with great efficiency. Also-the use of the word "struck" makes me think that they are sprinting...
On pg. 248:
(talking about the cottage) "Trees had grown up and closed in on the high round hut, and I almost passed it without seeing it. The clearing and what had been the kitchen garden we rank with brambles and tall weeds. I called out. No one answered. I went to the door and saw the house was desolate. The woodcutter and his wife had gone elsewhere, or were dead."
This is important, because it shows the time that has passed since Lavinia has been to this spot. It also to me represents the hopelessness of Silvius and Lavinia's state of being/mind is at that very moment.
On pg. 252:
"The next day, as the sun hung red above the sea mist in the west, we followed the narrow path into the grove of Albunea and came to the sacred enclosure."
also on pg. 252:
"The stars burned white through the black leaves of the trees."
I think it is interesting that after such a long time...Lavinia in her trouble goes back to Albunea. This is what moved me the most I think. It's like when you are having a hard time, you just want to go home. You want to go to the places that comforted you as a child. We, or at least I tend to seek stability. And going back to the things that were always helpful for us as a child, helps us find ourselves, helps us find our stability. We all have and need those places of stability. Whether it be a country or state, a house, a particular room, a studio, and maybe even a PERSON. Yes, a person is not a place. But they can also be used for stability. Especially people you have known for a long time and trust very much. I think this is shown in this section....when Lavinia is in Albunea and she seeks the poet, and she seeks Aeneas. She is seeking stability, help from the people who were with her when she was most successful-she NEEDS THEM DESPERATELY right now. Here is the moment where we see this:
On pg. 253:
"After a long time, when the constellations had changed, I spoke to the poet, not aloud but in my mind. 'Dear poet, all you told me came to me. You guided me truly, up to Aeneas' death. Since then I've let others lead me. But I go astray. I can't trust Ascanius-he doesn't know his own enmity to Silvius. I wish you were here to guide me now. I wish you could sing to me'"
Lastly, here is one moment that I thought was defining-I thought diction was important to it's meaning. And I think it showed us more clearly the relationship between Silvius and Lavinia:
On pg. 249:
"I stroked his hard, slight shoulder, still sweaty from our quick walk. 'Son of Aeneas.' I kissed him. He kissed me back 'I won't leave you,' he said. 'Never.' 'Oh, never and forever aren't for mortals, love. But we won't be parted till I know it's right that we part.' 'It's never, then,' he said."
that's it for now....sorry for the long blog. This section just had so much meaning to pull out of it!!!!!!
This is Sofia...
I'm not 100% sure if this counts as diction, but on page 253, when Aeneas' father, King Anchises, speaks as if to Aeneas in Lavinia's dream, he says, "'...your last child, whom your wife Lavinia will bring up in the woods, a king, a father of kings." I felt that the order and choice of the words was important in that, if it was said differently or more casually, it wouldn't have as much as an effect.
Also, for the imagery, "Below me lay a vast landscape of shadows, forests of shadowy trees. Out beyond those trees I saw my son standing in dim sunlight on the bank of a river, a river wider than Tiber, so broad and misty I could not clearly see the other shore." I feel that this example of imagery is very important in that it gives a clear description of what Lavinia was picturing and puts a vivid image in my own mind.
I'd like to comment on setting:
The oracle itself points towards the importance of nature in this reading especially; "A King of kings that Lavinia will raise in the forest". The forest, then, represents a kind of middle ground where it is sacrilegious to do any kind of harm to any one. It is impious to do wrong within the sacred groves of trees. In the nature of the oracle, we see that the setting itself is pious. I guess this might correlate with the gravitas and religio of the Latin people. Gravitas, in that these people respect their oracle enough to leave a political dispute alone; Religio in that their respect for their oracle would cause them to join toward a common cause of letting Lavinia raise Silvius alone in the pious-ness of the woodland setting.
Over and out...
I know it hasn't been 30 minutes but i REALLY need to go to bed...so....checking in...and nice use of vocab words matt....
checking in
i agree with matt . i really like any scenes there because they are all meaningful.
Checking in...
here is an exerpt that shows imagery and characterization...
"A shaft of sunlight struck throgh the gloom of the pines and oaks all around and made it warm there. Silvius sat down next to me. I looked at his thin brown boy legs and the shoes that were too heavy for his feet. He leaned his head against me. "They dont want to kill us, do they, mother?" he asked , not with terror but for reassurance."
The description of the sun coming through the forest is imagery. The description of the boy on the outside is characterization, but could also be seen as imagery as well. Then after the boy talks, it shows some of his personality. I dont think this shows he is brave, but it shows he is used to this kind of thing.
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