This reading assignment focuses on the child of Lavinia and Aeneas, Silvius.
1. Can you find anything from earlier in the book that connects with this reading, or feeds into it?
2. Why might Ascanius want Silvius to stay with him at Alba Longa while his mother goes back to Lavinium?
2. Why might Ascanius want Silvius to stay with him at Alba Longa while his mother goes back to Lavinium?
3. What do you make of the omen of the white sow and her piglets?
Answer any of the above, or a combination.
29 comments:
I would like to answer the second of the questions:
I believe Ascanius' need to nurture Silvius is in part built from a selfish desire to take on the fame - or potential-ness thereof - of Aeneas, his father. The reading mentions the fact that Ascanuis lived "in the glare of his father" (pg. 235) and that part of this glare has to do with Aeneas' nature: his paternal instincts and kindliness to the people of Lavinium, his people. Maybe Ascanius must then use Silvius as a means of spreading that father-like image and raising his own leaderly prowess. We know from this reading and ones past that Asanius is a very self-oriented person and this act goes to prove the fact. Maybe Ascanius would also like to further his own "glare" over Silvius, make Silvius "suffer" as he had to. But, then, why can't Ascanius just wait until he has kids of his own to punish, instead of making Lavinia hurt for him?
Hmmm...
There is a theme of the "she-wolf" in this particular reading, and this imagery is interesting. Throughout the book, Lavinia compares herself with a "she-wolf," and her description of a particular she-wolf illustrates what she means. She describes one encounter with a wolf on page 11, equating its fierce nature with being a "loving mother, the fierce queen." This is exactly what she is in this last reading; standing up against Ascanius, telling him that she will not go back to Lavinium "without Silvius," and that she will "not leave [her] son" (p 238). She feels that she is "the she-wolf on the shield now. He saw [her] teeth." This mix of maternal love, and fierce indignation is a interesting quality in Lavinia.
There are several reasons why Ascanius may have wanted to keep Silvius. It may lie in his need to "outdo" his father, or it could lie in his mourning for his father. He wants to "stand in a father's place to him," but I'm not sure he knows his own motive. He feels somewhat blindly that it is the right thing to do, but I think it certainly has more meaning to him than to bring Silvius up "among men."
I'm starting with the second prompt.
Ascanius wants Silvius to stay with him because he knows he will probably be king one day. Ascanius, if the one to bring up Silvius, will have a greater effect on the outcommings of Latium in the future. Also, Silvius is his father's son. It is previously stated that "Even Ascanius liked him, (Silvius) half unwillingly." Everyone likes Silvius, and Ascanius is unpopular. So though he may resent Silvius's popularity, he perhaps thinks that he'll be more popular if he acts as a fatherly character to him and pretends to be the cause of his good nature.
This is Rosamund.
I think that Ascanius may feel threatened if another king was brought up differentley than how he is ruling. If Silvius stayed with him then he could make sure he was taught what he believed and was not made more powerful tha him. Ascanius knows that Lavinia does not aprove of his rule and therefore knows that Lavinia will teach him how to rule differentley. This could possibly cause issues in the future if these two kingfs believed in completely different things and ways of ruling. Ascanius could see the little warrior in Silvius and may think that if it came to war Silvius could win.
FAVORITE QUOTATION:
"Your husband was a great warrior but he sought peace."
I think that the omen of the white sow and her piglets is a nice one and they handled it nicely in the text. Often they mis-interpret the omens or are really dramatic abou them. With this one they call for a sacrifice, which is very dramatic, but there is no yelling, and they found a new kingdom. So I kind of disagree with what I just said about it not being dramatic, but anyway...
I like this prophecy.
I'll be checking in...
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i agree with everybodys posts!!!!!!!
Charter traits of Silvius
1 "He was competituve"
2 "hit, he hit back hard."
3 "...he was serious, silent adn reserved."
4 "Everybody liked him."
these are all reasons that Ascanius might want Silvius to stay with him when his mother goes off.....Ascaius is weak and worried about his kingdom that is clearly at the begining of falling apart
the white sow and the thirty white piglets around her certainly means something....im not really sure though....i cant rap my mind around it!!!!
checking in
It's Hunter!
I'm doing 1 & 2...
1. I think something that connects is the fact that someone she loves very much, her Dad, dies in this reading. This connects to the reading we had over the weekend and how Aeneas died. The only difference is that she knew Aeneas was going to die, and didn't know her father was, so it was even more heartbreaking.
2. Ascanius may have wanted Silvius to stay with him in Alba Longa while his mother goes back to Lavinium so that he is protected and doesn't have to deal and think about his grandfather's death so much
This is a little off...but I read Turner's blog...where he said "Ascaius is weak and worried about his kingdom that is clearly at the begining of falling apart" and it unfortunately got Things Fall Apart in my head. So, I wanted to share my thoughts...
It's really strange to see the different reactions to "things fall apart" in the different books we've read. In Things Fall Apart, Okonkwo (wow...I cant believe I remember how to spell that!) deals by taking his own life. In Palace Walk, when Amina leaves the house, he kicks her out, because he was surprised about how he felt, which is when her life began falling apart. In the excerpts from the Iliad, when Patrocles is killed, Achilles seeks violence and kills Hector. And as Turner said, Ascanius wanted he to stay. I think that they each delt with the situations weakly...Okonkwo takes his life because he cant handle it, Amina was kicked out because he couldnt deal with her pain and independence and Achilles delt with his loss through rage. I just found that connection. (Thanks, Turner! <3)
I agree with rocco that the fact about the omen with the snow and pigs is a good omen. And the fact that their reactions were not a bad and snow and baby pigs don't really resemble bad things.
Renee....you are !#$%^&!#$%^%$%^&** BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
xoxox
What wonderful juxtaposition!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................................as mr. gregg would say
i don't reallt know AUSTIN and ROCCO, you could agrue the omen both ways......you might be able to see the pigs as "feeding off" their mother (which they are) in a bad way....like using someone or....feeding off of someone!!!!
i don't know, its a wierd omen
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA why thank you, Turner!
i agree with rocco. also in my drawing class today a girl told me that in korea if you have a dream about a pig it means your pregnant, which is somewhat relevant......
also lavinia's friend from childhood was named silvia, not unlike silvius....
question 2:
i also agree with rosamund. i also think that silvius has to stay because he has to beget romulus and remus, which is important if virgil wants people to accept the aenead.
I think that Ascanius feels a need to nurture Silvius because of his natural human instincts. No one's heart is fully stone...everyone has emotions, that they need to express somehow, they also have a love for people and the world...that sometimes they might not show- but someone will pull that out of them. Silvius- a cute, tiny child, very knowledgeable, loveable and sweet brings out Ascanius' love for the world, and for people. Ascanius has a lot on his mind...especially right now...He is trying to do a job to big for him while dealing with a lot of emotional stress. Silvius is his escape from this world of responsibility and stress. He needs that. It is simply human. Ascanius' love for Silvius shows us how HUMAN he is...which reminds us that he has feelings too...which makes us understand him better....or at least try to understand him better. And at least for me...it is a way of finding Ascanius' true self. It is the key to his story.
I was kind of confused because the story was completely cut off because it was not a beginning of a new section as usual...
I looked at the side of Ascanius wanting Silvius to stay more than Lavinia when I first read it. I believed that it was because Ascanius wanted to make Silvius a mixture of Aeneas and himself to make Silvius strong. Some people have mentioned that he was just being selfish and wanted to become famous but I disagree with the fact that this is the reason why Lavinia should have the child because she is doing the same thing. She just wants her own son to go with her and does not really care about other people.
Sorry that I talked more about the two arguements compared to how Ascanius thinks..
This is Sofia...
I think that there a few reasons why Ascanius wants Silvius to stay in Alba Longa when Lavinia goes back to Lavinium, one reason being that he feels like he never really paid that much attention to Silvius and realized that he wants to be like his father who he loved dearly but felt threatened by at the same time. "...Ascanius lived in the glare of his father's name, forever trying to find his own glory, always outshone." Another reason why Ascanius wants to keep Silvius with him is because he doesn't want Silvius to be brought up by a woman-he wants him to be brought up by man to be a strong fighter and start his training. For example, "'And I'll keep Silvius here, of course, for his training. It's time I was a better brother to him-I who stand in a father's place to him.'" Also, Lavinia suggests that this is the way Ascanius feels. "'...he'll [Silvius} be brought up in all the ways and arts of men by his father's companions and your Latin captains there...Is he unskilled for his age? Is he lazy, or cowardly? Is he in any way unworthy of his father?'"
I am responding to the second prompt.
2. Ascanius wanted to raise Silvius as Silvius’s father would. Ascanius felt it to be his duty to train him and it seemed to be his duty as king. In the reading Ascanius says this and says that it’s because Silvius must be trained. “’And I’ll keep Silvius here, of course, for his training. Its time I was a better brother to him-I who stand in a fathers place to him.” Page 238.
This is Alison Remmers.
I will be checking in later! <3
I find right here that there is a lot about "gravitas" going on because whether Silvius is going to be grown as a man who is strong and was taken care of by a man or a man who is strong but was taken care of a woman is a very important difference in their culture especially because men had more power than woman.
I wonder if this story is different in real life that now there is less difference in men and women? or is there actual difference in men and women?
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just checking in...very interesting point about gravitas and gender roles nami! <3
Checking in...
I agree with Rocco about the omen. I wasn't confused about it like I knew whereit was and kinda what it had to do with...in my oppinion it is done well
yeah im going to just try to argue with Rocco and Austin. The baby pigs and white snow can sometimes be beautiful and happy, but they could also resemble a bad omen. Winter back then meant no crops and no food. It was much more difficult to transport goods in the snow. Also, as Turner said, the pigs could show that people are surrounding you, using you to their advantage. You are feeding them for free, and they give nothing back. These could both be bad things. However, the first snow is a beautiful event and everything is gorgeous. The baby pigs show new life. They could also mean more food, because more pigs = more food. So you could go either way on that.
In response to Prompt #2:
The omen of the white sow and her piglets seemed to be something that shouldn't be misinterpreted due to its relevance with the state of affairs and social order. But would it be possible for it not to be interpreted at all? It seems as if omens don't actually cause bad things to happen, people seeing omens cause bad things to happen. For example, if no one had saw the eagle getting attacked by the group of swans, would the treaty would have been broken still? It would be true that the people who shouted out the omen, obviously were looking for something to fuel their flames but it seems as if misinterpreting omens coincides with not interpreting them at all. If misfortune follows omens, why tell?
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