Note that "virtue" in this reading from Lavinia is used in an old-fashioned sense; it means "manliness," "manhood." Aeneas discussions with Ascanius (and others) might not make much sense without knowing this. Note also that Ascanius was sent away to Alba Longo to govern there, basically to keep him out of trouble, but that he caused trouble there through his aggression, his eagerness to fight, his eagerness to prove himself. So Aeneas has brought him home to Lavinium.
Note also that these discussions of virtue treat the same problem we discussed in class today (Thursday): "what is the relationship between energizing passion and morality?" becomes "what is the relationship of manliness and piety?"
Note also that these discussions of virtue treat the same problem we discussed in class today (Thursday): "what is the relationship between energizing passion and morality?" becomes "what is the relationship of manliness and piety?"
Prompt #1: In Aeneas soul, which--reason, courage, and appetites--are in control? Who well do the three "get along" with each other? What about in Ascanius' soul? If you're not too sure of Ascanius' character, you could answer this question for Turnus instead. Or Achilles.
OR you could address this prompt:
Prompt #2: (a) does the energizing passion v. morality ever come into play in the lives of young people like yourselves? How so? (b) How does your answer to this question pertain to this part of Lavinia?
Prompt #2: (a) does the energizing passion v. morality ever come into play in the lives of young people like yourselves? How so? (b) How does your answer to this question pertain to this part of Lavinia?
28 comments:
Blog prompt #1:
Really, Aeneas' soul is controlled by reason. Aeneas is, after all, a very reasonable man. That's not to say Aeneas' soul is left uninfluenced by courage and appetite... We see him running in battle multiple times throughout the story. It certainly requires courage to fight in a war - with warfare as personal as it was back then, courage must have been even more of a necessity. The idea of appetite we see much less amongst his soul. I think Aeneas' soul deals with courage and appetite through the lens of reason, though. All the time Aeneas spends hunched over in thought about the countless deaths as a result of his courage in battle? Reason. All the maners and responsibilities Aeneas has learned in part as the selfless leader he is? Reason. In all, Aneas's is a schema built upon reason to deal with those lesser qualities all humans must wrestle with to some degree.
Ascanius' soul is a little different; I believe he see the two parts of his soul - reason, appetite - through courage. This is the problem Aeneas tries to right as the patient, "virtuous" father he is.
Way...
Aeneas, although portrayed as a great hero, inevitably has his own flaws. Aeneas' great courage in battle is obvious, and his reason as a king is also great. What interests me the most is that his guilt impacts these characteristics the most. His guilt over Turnus' death gnaws at him, and he is unable to apply his normally sound reason to this. Ascanius feels that war and battles are the correct focuses for life. Where does this mean he thinks he is on the chart Mr. Durning put up? Does he just misunderstand his role, or is there more behind this? I think that Aeneas explains Ascanius well, "Virtue and piety destroy each other." This also says interesting things about Aeneas and Ascanius' relationship; if Aeneas focuses on piety, and Ascanius focuses on manliness, will they destroy each other?
It seams Aeneas has a balance of reason, courage, and appetite. He is a reasonable man, courageous when courage is called for, and therefore has an appetite (though not, I'm assuming, in the literal sense) when one is called for. Perhaps Aeneas is the "ideal man", although he's deffinately not the happiest of men, which might signify something more profound about idealism in a man. I'll leave you to ponder that one.
Ascanius seams at this point to be ruled by appetite. He is hungry for power, and reasons with himself that courage on the battlefield is the way to virtue. He is therefor as courageous as he should be, but in the last chapter he seams to have been lacking on the reasoning front. Still, when Aeneas talks to him he responds well, so it's not like he's so stubborn that he's unwilling to listen.
This is Rosamund
I agree with you, Matt and Rosamund. I very interested by the relationship between a persons happiness and their ideal role in society. If a person is able to be the "ideal" of their role in society, are they going to be happy? With Ascanius, he does not quite fill the ideal role in society (going by Mr. Durning's chart). Does this explain his unhappiness and lack of success ruling? However, Aeneas does appear to fufill his "ideal role" in society, but he is constantly feeling guilty for Turnus' death.
Checking in. . .
I feel like everyone has a point where the have to choose between morality or their energizing passion. even last week someone said something really mean and i was questtioning should i do the good thing or let my anger get the better of me. I think in other readings this shows but i dont think maybe ill check in later with that part of the ppromt
It's Hunter :)
I'm doing prompt #2:
a. Energizing passion vs. morality definitely comes into play in my life. This is because sometimes my passion for theater is up against my morals and when I should get my homework done and being a good person and everything because I am always so busy with my passion of theater it's sometimes hard to pay attention to morality.
b. An example of energizing passion vs. morality is on page 213 it says, "My heart felt as if it was being squeezed in a fist of fear; but now that the time had come, my empty iaaginings of escape all died away and left me to facve what there was no escaping."
Promt #1 - Achilles
I would say that the that in Achilles' soul there doesn't seem to be a balance because I don't think of Achilles as having a soul. Now I'm not saying this as a "bad thing" but it seems as if Achilles "soul" isn't really that more raw emotion and energy that influences his conscious and unconscious decisions. Now if is what is control him in one way or another I would say that courage and appetite correspond well but his appetite (I'm guessing you mean a kind of emotional hunger, blind passion?) outweighs his courage due to its thick meaning but that offset seems to supply continuation of his courage. His reason doesn't seem to fall into the equation but more so in situations not as intense as a battle or conflict. I would say that maybe reason for Achilles isn't part of his "soul" at all more so of a thinner level of personality; something easier for humans to read from each other.
yes...energizing passion vs. morality does come into play in our lives....a perfect example of this ould be something that happened in the music department a few days ago.....someone kicked in the vents in one of the practice rooms!!! I dont really know the whole story, though, but someone in the music department, someone who was chosen to be here at walnut hill, someone who chose to come to this school, someone who walnut hill saw had energizing passion, made the BAD desicion to vandaize a practice room!!! energizing passion vs. morality!!!! wow......SSSSSSOOOOOOO interesting!!!!!!!
Im not sure how this energizing passion relates to Lavinia...i have to think some more...be back soon
xoxox
We can all tell that their is a relationship between energizing passions and moral virtue in young people's lives. Whether someone's passions conflict with their moral virtues, or whether someone's moral virtues drives their passions changes depending on the person, the time, the place...etc. We see it all around us.
In the reading, we see this relationship clearly in the characters of Lavinia and Aeneas:
"I watched Aeneas master his bitter, disappointed anger. He was like a man mounted on a powerful horse that fights the reigns and plunges, nose to feet, and kicks, twisting its body, and finally brought to stand white with sweat, shaking, ready to obey. My heart felt as if it were being squeezed in a fist of fear; but now that the time had come, my empty imaginings of escape all died away and left me to face what their was no escaping."
In this case, Aeneas' passion is his anger, and Lavinia's passion is her fear and love for Aeneas. Their moral virtues are in conflict with these passions and this causes them quite a lot of anguish.
RACHEL YOU STOLE MY IDEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
still love ya xoxox
i agree with everybodys' posts...we have grown so much in smartness over the term!!!! go freshman!!!!
checking in!!!
just checking in........
Turner, do not ever say XOXO again.
That's like, my thing.
Anyway. One way that passion overcomes morality in our lives is peer pressure. Peers sometimes ask us to do things that don'thelp us and get us in trouble. Often these things are bad things to do and not very moral. In fourth grade I was dared to put a crack in a wall at school and by accident I broke it. That is an example of peer pressure to beak school propoerty which is a bad idea in any case.
For the record I repaired the wall, and did some community service at the school to make up for it.
In this case overriding pressure or passion overrides marality. Breaking a wall is not moral.
FAVORITE QUOTE:
"Of course he did. He won all his battles, till the last one."
"We all do," Aneas remarked.
I also like the other prompt, so I'll do a little fo that too.
So far I agree with most of the people commenting... Aneas is very reasonable. His actions are not over-ridden by courage and appetite. Sure, he is a little but it's human. He can't ever be in complete control, nor can anyone.
Thanks for reading... I'll be checking in...
XOXO Rocco
I also agree that energizing passion vs. morality comes into all of our lives. We all are extremely passionate about our arts and we are faced with situations each and everyday that force us to choose between our passion and our morals. I think even if we dont realize it, we are taking a side in every decision we make. For example, you may be passionate about spending time with your friends, but you know you should be doing homework...so are you going to spend x block with your friends or doing work??
In relation to Lavinia...it is shown clearly in there as well. I COMPLETELY agree with Hunter! The quote she provided was right on. Lavinia is trying to deal with things and so she much decide whether she can achieve better by choosing morality or passion...
Aeneas has a well-balanced character. He can be a feirce warrior but also have a soft side especially for Lavinia. He seems to use all the different sides and characteristics of himself at the right time and that is why he is considered such a good man. He rashes out whe he needs to, is strict when he need to be, is kind and is capable of loving and feeling guilt for his actions. All of these things make him a virtuous person.
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my answer is sort of
i feel like Achilles does have a soul and souch...for he believes in the gods and such (after all, hes more than a normal mortal). But he doesnt use his head or his heart. Its just his passion and lust for revenge that drives him. He respects people, but doesnt show any feeling towards them.
promt a
i think the most common examole of morality v.s passion is when someone is mad at someone. it is better for the relationship f you dont express anger.
Prompt 2:
I do agree with every single person who mentioned about taking your arts or your homework and also about when you are in a fight. I don't really think that this applies to other majors but, recently I have really been fighting against energizing passion and morality because since we have nutcracker rehearsals, I haven't been pleased with some of the work I do but I also think that it is the right thing to rest to not injure myself and actually do well on the performance which is why somedays I stay late to practice and some days I don't.
I am having trouble looking for a part that pertains in Lavinia so I will try and write that later.
Prompt number 2:
A.I feel like the energizing passion vs. morality comes into play in lives of young people. Just like Hunter said, I have my passion for the arts (ballet for me) v. my moralities such as,homework, sleep, etc. This plays into other young peoples lives that are not like me. But in some ways they are, like people that play sports and such, the same passion v. morality comes into the situation just like mine. This is true for many people who have a deep passion for anything.
B. The sense of passion vs. morality in two parts of the reading in Lavinia. The first is showing the passion part of it on page 214. "My relief and joy at seeing him, embracing him, was so great it set all else aside. I felt that night that to have known such fulfillment was to be, in some parts of my being, forever safe from absolute despair, from the ruin of the soul. Joy my shield." The second quote is showing the morality aspect of it and it really talks about the rolls of how you should govern, not just all about fighting. "'If you are to rule Latium after me, and pass it to your brother Silvius, I want to know that you'll learn how to govern, not merely make war, that you'll learn to ask the powers of earth and sky for manhood on a greater field than the battlefield. Tell me that you will learn those things, Ascanius.'"
This is Alison Remmers! :)
This is Sofia...
Aeneas is big on reason and what is right and good, but sometimes his "appetite" comes in and during battle and he acts too rashly. For example, he almost didn't kill Turnus due to his good sense of reason, but once he saw that Turnus was wearing Pallas' gold sword belt, his anger got the better of him and he acted rashly by killing Turnus. This shows that the three (reason, courage, and appetite) sometimes don't "get along with each other." Later, Aeneas regrets very, very much that he killed Turnus, and often thinks deeply about why he did it. This shows me that his soul is indeed controlled by reason, so I would have to say that although his courage and appetite are also both a part of his soul, reason, I think, is the main one.
Ascanius' soul, on the other hand, is more controlled by his courage and appetite. He strongly believes to have virtue, one must be courageous and be a strong warrior. For example, "Ascanius said one day, with his youthful pompousness, that the only true proof of manhood was in battle: true virtue was skill in fighting, courage to fight, will to win, and victory." Is this Ascanius' true character? That is, is this just the way he is? Or is he still young and learning about what true virtue is?
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Some people have already mentioned my observations which support energizing passion vs morality.
"He was like a man mounted on a powerful horse that fights the reins and plunges, nose to feet, and kicks, twisting its body, and finally is brought to stand white with sweat, shaking, ready to obey."
"I felt that night that to have known such fulfillment was to be, in some part of my being, forever safe from absolute despair, from the ruins of the soul. Joy my shield. "
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I agree with Jake. I might take his idea further to interpret the fulfillment of one's natural - and thus ideal - role in society as the purpose of life itself. I think this extends to the essence of Plato's Republic as well as the golden-period Athenian polis: its need for the cooperation of the individual as means of protecting the well-being of the whole.
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