1. Try to put into words how Siddhartha's love for his son is different from the other loves he has had.
OR
2. Do you agree with Vasudeva's advice to Siddhartha--that Siddhartha should separate himself from his son?
OR
3. Can you think of a way any of the items included in the "eight-fold path" list apply to Siddhartha's behavior in this reading?
OPTIONAL:
Do not answer this question on this blog, just think about it: are their aspects of Siddhartha's parenting of his son that are like your parents' parenting of you?
26 comments:
Siddhartha has such a passionate paternal love for his son, "so blind, so painful, so futile." I think the true difference in this love does not have to do with the amount of love Siddhartha has for his son, but rather the kind of love. Siddhartha loves many people along his journey; he loves Kamala, his friend Govinda, perhaps even the Buddha, but he is not attached to them. Siddhartha may love each of them as much as his son, but I think he is bound to his son, and this causes the suffering. Siddhartha's "blind love" stems from this attachment, for his son's awful behavior does not cause Siddhartha to re-think things. This love may be less pure because of this; he is not able to keep his son's best interest in mind.
Vasudeva feels that Siddhartha is not keeping his son's interest in mind, and recommends that Siddhartha brings his son back to the town, and disconnect from him. This idea seems so harsh at first thought. Siddhartha is the boy's parent, he is kind to him, and he loves him completely - why should he let his son go? The boy is not in any way at the same point as Siddhartha, but Siddhartha isn't able to comprehend that the boy must make his own choices, and employ his own mind to get to this spiritual place. To Siddhartha, the journey itself seems so simple, yet so painful; he went through much suffering, and wants to spare his son this, but, metaphorically, he is trying to teach a toddler to perform brain surgery. Who would try to teach this to a toddler this? It is completely out of this toddler's zone of proximal development, and it's the same for Siddhartha's child; he cannot be protected from the suffering, or be taught how to avoid it at this time. I think Vasudeva might have different advice for Siddhartha if Siddhartha didn't have this strong attachment to his son, and I think his son might actually love him, and want to stay with him then. This is not to say that it is wrong for Siddhartha to be so attached, for it seems natural, but I think a combination of the new life he is imposing on the child and the attachment make Siddhartha unable to be a sound parent.
2. I know I am contradicting myself a bit here but I'm going to say it anyway. I agree and disagree with Vasudeva's advice that Siddhartha should seperate himself from his son. I think Siddhartha should seperate himself from his son because of the fact that he's suffering because of attatchment. I disagree because I think he is really finding out what love is, although the kid is defiant and the fact that Kamala said he can't love, I still believe he can. What I just said ties into the eight-fold path because if he wants to stop suffering with deciding if he loves his son or not by following the 8fold path.
1. Siddartha's love for his son is different from other loves he has had just as anyone else's love for their child is different from all other loves. Siddartha loves his son because he stirs memory in him. He looks like both his mother, who Siddartha loved dearly, and him. He has a paternal, biological bond with this boy and can't and won't forget about it. It is probably greater than his love for his mother. He described his feelings for Kamala as love in many instances, but still there was a conversation where the two agreed "People like us can't love." Siddartha was always attracted to Kamala but never felt responsible for her, and therefor never tried to protect her. He was at ease about her death, whereas when his own son ran away from him he was distraught. He cannot possibly imagine leaving his son in a position in which he could cause himself harm.
-Rosamund
I agree with Hunter--I dont think you are contradicting yourself at all.
I also very much agree with Rosamund on prompt one. Siddhartha has a bond with his son that is different from all the other bonds that he has had before. He feels a certain kind of pride and a sense of reaponsibility for him that he hasnt been put in the position to feel ever before. He is also, like Rosamund said, reminded of Kamala when he sees his son, therefore it brings up memories. But I think it goes even deeper than that. I believe that Kamala represented a life that Siddhartha loved. She was alway there (even if she wasnt physically there, he always knew she was out there) to remind him of that. But she's gone. Now his son is the only connection he has left with that old life that, for a time, he loved. So, not only does Siddhartha love his son because he is his son, but also because he is now the representation for everything that Siddhartha once loved and still loves combind.
I agree with Renee, but also wanted to stress how Siddartha is attatched to his son for reasons greater than that he reminds him of Kamala. When Kamala has just died, Vasudeva asks if Siddartha grieves for her. He responds "Why should I be sad? She has brought me my son." He is excited to be given his son to look after for more reasons than one. A son is something Siddartha has never had before, but also he has never had anything like a son before. He has never had anything to look after. When his best friend, Govinda joins the monks of Gautama's teaching, Siddartha is sad for him but would not stay and look after him. He is happy that Govinda has found his own path. He never looks after Kamala in a protective kind of way either, perhaps partly because he knows she has been with so many other man, he is sort of like the child in the relationship. Little Siddartha is Old Siddartha's only thing to care for.
checking in..
Yes.
I agree, Rosamund. There is a kind of newness that Siddhartha is experiencing. Not only is having a child something new for him, but the emotions connected to that is new. Siddhartha seems to have a great facination with new things. He left his life that he was given for a NEW life as a samana. He felt NEW emotions (love) for Kamala. There are many examples of it. Siddhartha seeks ways to refresh his life and keep thing new.
1. Siddhartha's love for his son is as jake put it "a passionate paternal love". It is love that he has never experienced before. He is emotionally attached to his son. He wants the best for his son, he doesn't want his son to suffer. He feels his son's pains and wishes his son's love in return. Siddhartha's love is the love of a child person. A selfless love.
"Indeed, he had never been able to lose himself completely in anyone else, give himself completely to another person, forget himself, commit follies of love for someone else. He had never been able to do these things, and this had struck him as the great gap between him and the child people. But now that his son was here, now he, Siddhartha, too, had become a child person, suffering for someone else, loving someone else, lost in a love, a fool for love. Now he too, at this late time, felt this strongest and strangest passion, suffered from it, suffered woefully, and yet he was blissful, was somewhat renewed, was somewhat richer." (pg. 107)
This passage illustrates perfectly Siddhartha's love for his son. There is not much else I can say....for that is Siddhartha's feelings in more or less "his own words".
Promt 1 and 2
I think just the fact that Siddhartha discovers that he has a son changes everything in how his love for his son is different than anyone else's. Siddhartha's patience and understanding and waiting for the boy is an example of his love..there are MANY quotes as well
Pg 103 - "...his son had brought not peace and happiness to him but sorrow and suffering. Still, he loved him, and he charished the sorrow adn suffering of love more than joy and happiness without the boy."
---this is pretty strong father-son love. AThe boy is being an ABSOLUTE pain in the neck (i don't blaim him...though he should GROW UP eventually) and the father STILL loves him very much.
just checking in....I came up with the best word to describe the father's love. UNCONDITIONAL!
oops, here is my # 2...
I do not agree with Vasudeva's advice that Siddhartha shoudl leave his son....although i think e aproached the situation and Siddhartha friendly and appropraitely, i DO NOT think his advice is correct.
On the other hand when the boy runs away, i think Vasudeva is right to say "let the boy go" in away..or "let him chose what he wants/needs to do"
I think throughout this chapter Siddartha is being good but in a way that for me is off the Eightfold path. It anyone can help me withthis that would be great.
I think he is being good by trying to get his son to not be so attached so that he will not feel the pain he is feeling when his mother dies, when he doesn't have all the riches and such he had while his mother is alive.
I think what he does would fall into Ethical Conduct, because it includes speech, action and livelihood.
Anyway... I have to go...
Thanks!
checking in!!
promt 1/2
i think that the love for his son is not selfish. when he loves kamala he wants something from her. he just loves his son, which probably comes from evolution,but the love is about his son not himself. i think it is true for most people, it is hard to love people with out it being about themselves. i think that this love is bad from a buddhist perspective because he is deeply attached. this seems kind of selfish to me because then people are not connected to each other.but i know nothing about it so that could be not true. but it is definatly true that the suffering in this case is about attachment. maybe life is not about the cessation of suffering.
what jake said was interesting. maybe siddharthas attachment to his son gets in the way of siddhartha looking out for his child's best interest.
Checking in.
I agree with jake I like the way he stated the way he loves him is not what's different it's the amount. Like they way he loves his son(because it's his son) is way more . But what I see is the orgin of sufering is atachement. And he very attached .....Lets see how ths plays out
This is Sofia...
Prompt #2:
I personally agree with Vasudeva about Siddhartha separating himself from his son. Honestly, I feel like nothing Siddhartha could have said or done would have stopped his son from running away. Siddhartha's son is on his own path. He's a different person from his father and his destiny can not be changed. Vasudeva had said to Siddhartha, "'But even if you died for him ten times over, you could not take away even the tiniest bit of his [Siddhartha's son] destiny.'"
As for prompt #1, I think that Siddhartha feels his love for his son in a different way than all his other loves in that he's never been a father before, therefore he has never felt this kind of, as Jake put it, "paternal love". He loves his son so much and so deeply, but at the same time this love is like a wound for he knows deep down that he cannot change his son's ways.
prompt 2
I agree with Vesudeva because Siddhartha and his son have not known eachother for a long time. I think that if Siddartha was the one who grew him up, then he has the power to stop his son from leaving and also his son would have more love to him. I also think that the fact that Siddartha was not able to save Kamala is hitting the son pretty hard. I also agree with Sofia about the fact that the son is in its own life on his own route and since he was brought up differently compared to Siddartha with only on parent and in a wealthy family, Siddartha should not stop his son from going to town.
checking in
A combination of 1 and 2:
Siddartha's love for his son is, well, difficult to relate into words. Even in the story, there is no decisive passage that states what Siddartha's love for his son is truly about, why it is the intense, lost way it is. Certainly, it has something to do with their father son relationship. The father loves his son without question and is willing to endure great suffering for the deep satisfaction that any inkling of his love might bring. Why? I guess that is what I'm trying to answer. I think it is the physical connection between this person that is literally half him and his whole self. I think the other loves Sidddartha's experienced differed in lacking this simple physical connection. He is certainly "physical" with Kamala, but on a level of pleasure, rather than existence. So he is necessarily detached from her. Vasudeva implores Siddartha to detach himself from his son in this way, but it is simply to hard for Siddartha. I agree with Vasudeva, in that, when the nest egg is ready to fly, it must. Siddartha realizes this, but only while running through the woods. So, there is necessary separation in every relationship. And it is necessary, because the clutches, the nest, of love become to binding, to sticky to fell free within.
I think Matt makes a good point when he is saying that seperation is something that has to occur in a father son or parent child (this reminds me of filial piety we are learning in History!) relationship and it is an important step in order to become an adult.
checking in..
I think that the love for Siddhartha's son that he displays to his son is that of a very strong love. What's interesting about his love is that its strong because he doesn't force his son to do chores and such and treats him well and respects him. His love is powerful because there is no motive to it, he is completely selfless in his love.
This love differs much from other loves he has had because most of them pertain to him. With Kamala most obviously, there is a lot of agenda involved; he is simply pleasuring himself. He enjoys his love with other people where with his son he is giving his love away, despite whether or not he receives any in return.
I agree with matt, that Siddarthas son wishes to leave, as does any other son. However, Siddartha is so attached to him, and it is so difficult for him to let him go. It is more than the "biological programming" that every parent has to love his/her son...he loves him intensely. Finally, he realizes that he must let him go.
Thanks Nami!
Checking in,
Matthew
Sorry that I could not get to the blog last night Mr.durning. I had some issues getting hold of a computer with internet. But yeah I quess I'll just post now then.
I Think That Siddartha's friends advice is exactly whay Siddartha should do. At the beginning of the book Sidartha's father had to allow Siddartha to leave in order for him to be happy. This is what Siddartha needs to do with his own son, he needs to find his own path. Siddarthha does not want his son to do what he did: following the worldly things. But what Siddartha needs to realize is that since he had that experince and went through that he learned how to have inner peace and be happy. He needs to let his son follow his own path and have his own journey otherwise he won't learn anything about the world and will not be able to survive. Also the only way he can get his son to love him is by letting him choose to do so. By letting him get away from his father he will be able to think about it and possibly decide to go back to Siddartha. But if Siddartha doesn't even give him a choice to leave he will never grow to love his father because he will be sooo angry at him. Overall Siddartha's friends advice is correct.
wait a second...
I'm confused is I thought this was yesterdays blog not todays
if it is yesterdays then why is there no new blog??
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